I am disappointed in Keystone

[Old GI]

I have always theorized that if the boss doesn't care then neither will anyone else so I decided to put Keystone to the test. I called and of course a customer service rep answered the phone, I asked for Team Montana but customer service would not patch me through, he said he could take care of any problem and I told him I didn't want to waste time restating the problem but would rather go directly to the folks that put them together, no dice he wouldn't hear of it. I was nice, I looked up the number for Corporate and called, guess what? another customer service rep. I asked for someone in Management, no dice she wouldn't hear of it. I told her I didn't want anything from Keystone I just wanted someone in Management to look at the sloppy electricsal work. Management can delegate everything but responsibility and I wanted someone who is responsible for quality to know. No luck, never got past customer service it seems as though management has insulated themselves from problems by putting a customer service rep between the customer and management, kind of like sticking your head in the sand so you don't have to know about problems, too bad Keystone.

[Ozz]

I admire you for trying, us hard-headed guys are seldom rewarded for our perseverance. A letter just may get there, try that, with printed out copies of the posts regarding your problems, and our interest of them as a group.
Ozz

[Old GI]

Ozz, I asked the first rep if they ever read our posts, she said the sales people do, I told her that it was too bad the Managers don't I also told her that I didn't want anything from Keystone, I just want Management to recognize that there is a real problem.

[richfaa]

Fairly typical of any large organization. The customer service rep is just that, It is their job to solve problems so that higher levels of management can devote their skills to more important issues. If the problem gets to the boss that means the customer rep is not doing their job.I am not at all surprised that the rep protected their job by not letting you go up the line. You will have to find another way to express your concerns.

[mtpocket2]

The rep did their job. They got you off the phone without helping you or costing Keystone an money. An excellent Keystone employee. Probably get the customer service person of the year for it. The customer service personnel are a direct reflection of the management. If management doesn't care customer service doesn't care. Unfortunately the only thing that will get their attention is a lawsuit when someone loses a family in a fire and it can be directly traced back to them. Very sad.

After reading this any many other posts I guess I have no choice but to check every connection I can get to. If nothing else just a little peace of mind.

[Ozz]

I think they want you to go through a dealer, the dealer you bought it from, for ANY problems. They are not set up to handle any chit-chat from individuals, just wouldn't be possible. They would be interrupted from counting the piles of money, lose their place and start all over again.....
JUST KIDDING......about the piles of money part.
I do think there should be a system for responding to a serious problem such as wiring melt down, but it doesn't look like they are set up to do that, other than the customer service dept.
I still think a letter would be the best way for you at this point, put your frustrations in print and send 'er off.
Ozz

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Fairly typical of any large organization. The customer service rep is just that, It is their job to solve problems so that higher levels of management can devote their skills to more important issues. If the problem gets to the boss that means the customer rep is not doing their job.I am not at all surprised that the rep protected their job by not letting you go up the line. You will have to find another way to express your concerns.

That other way to express our concerns will be SOB for us. What is more important than keeping the paying customer happy? Seems I was taught the customer is always right (at least you listen and make them think so). So much for that theory. I really think Keystone's approach is a one time sale.

[bsmeaton]

I don't think any company is equipped to be scolded by an angry customer, especially predicated by the fact you don't want anything from them. Your check already cashed baby!

I had a similar problem with brakes and forwarded poor craftsmanship concerns to Customer Service. I did not get a response but I also didn't ask for one. I had no expectations other than hoping that they looked at the pictures and felt a little guilty about the risk they put me in.

However, when I have actually had a problem that they could resolve, and I presented it to Customer Service as needing resolved with me, Keystone has always come through so far.

This industry is driven by the consumer. We look first at price and then at features. Rarely do we let quality stand in our way. Cheaper and faster, that is America and it is reflected in our RVs, autos, homes, electronics...everything. I'm not so sure that is bad.

[richfaa]

Will..That is a excellent "other way" Montana is a young company as companies go about 1999 to present hardly enough time to establish a firm track record. Customer satisfaction with the product and second time buyers are a huge indicator of success. IMO those indicators are now being established. We are not strangers to ..how organizations work.. as we spent a lot of time doing "organizational development" programs. Again in my opinion having met and talked to most of the leaders of the Montana division,(at the fall rallies) and we know what questions to ask,We feel there is a solid core of management expertise in the Montana Division with solid goals and objectives.They know were they want to go.. Getting there in the highly competitive Rv industry is another story. Again, IMO, Montana has maybe 5 years to ...find their place.. As for customer service. Again IMO it is to erratic..sometimes very good and sometimes very bad which is a indicator of poor or unclear goals and objectives. Everyone is not on the same page. These are the folks that represent the organization to the consumer and they can make or break the organization.. End of lecture..

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Will..That is a excellent "other way" Montana is a young company as companies go about 1999 to present hardly enough time to establish a firm track record. Customer satisfaction with the product and second time buyers are a huge indicator of success. IMO those indicators are now being established. We are not strangers to ..how organizations work.. as we spent a lot of time doing "organizational development" programs. Again in my opinion having met and talked to most of the leaders of the Montana division,(at the fall rallies) and we know what questions to ask,We feel there is a solid core of management expertise in the Montana Division with solid goals and objectives.They know were they want to go.. Getting there in the highly competitive Rv industry is another story. Again, IMO, Montana has maybe 5 years to ...find their place.. As for customer service. Again IMO it is to erratic..sometimes very good and sometimes very bad which is a indicator of poor or unclear goals and objectives. Everyone is not on the same page. These are the folks that represent the organization to the consumer and they can make or break the organization.. End of lecture..

Rich, Keystone is owned by Thor. They've been around the block, in business since 1980. If you think they are gonna get better, good luck. It is my belief they are going to try to sell one RV to each customer, and not worry about customer relations. They've got your money, to heck with you.

I was cautious about what I said on this forum until my warranty expired. But now, they can kiss my grits. I may be paranoid, but I still think Keystone has a connection to this forum.

As far as a law suit against Keystone, it ain't gonna happen until someone is killed by their negligence. The average individual cannot afford to take on a large corporation. The only way it will happen is with a death, and some law firm taking the case on contingency. Just like the Firestone tires; if someone had not died, they would have gone unchallenged.

[mtpocket2]

SlickWillie
You are correct. There are a bunch of nice people here in the forum but Keystone is another matter. I will buy something else next time unless Keystone has another opportunity to impress me and actually does. And if I cannot afford the quality and service level I expect then I do not need the product. I'll find something else to do with my time and money.

[HughM]

I'm waiting for Toyota to start building RV's. The industry standards will go up and not stay stagnant.
Look what Honda and Toyota did for Detroit's way of thinking how to build vehicles.
Remember the cars of the 50's and 60's and their life span. Then along came Japan and its standard of production.
I only buy American vehicles but I enjoy the benifits of Japans raising the bar.

[bsmeaton]

Don't forget Japan is the product of our redevelopment consulting. After WWII we sent teams of corporate show offs over there to teach them how to be an industrial giant like us so we could build trade with them to overcome our guilt for using them for target practice with our nukes. Ironically, one of the biggest things we boasted about was our quality programs and how they should be like us.

Unfortunately, they listened and took it serious, we partied.

[richfaa]

Will..I disagree... but you may well be correct..time will tell. Thor http://www.thorindustries.com/ owns many Rv companies including air stream.

My warranty is also up and I do not expect Keystone to come to my rescue in the event of a system failure. I no longer call keystone, I call the vendor of the failed item(most of them have longer warranties) or my extended warranty company. I would do that no matter what brand of camper I had.IMO, only..Keystone is no better no worse than any other RV manufacturer' We had way to many problems with our 3400 but Keystone stood behind the product and corrected every issue to our complete satisfaction.Don't think we would have had any better luck with any other comparable brand. You are also correct about it taking a disaster to bring about change,, The modern air traffic control system is a result of a mid air collision of 2 airliners over the grand canyon many years ago . mtpocket2..you are also correct//if you are not getting what you expected from the product a change is in order,,I can relate to that re: my shinny new 08 6.4 diesel truck. Good luck to all.

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Will..I disagree... but you may well be correct..time will tell. Thor http://www.thorindustries.com/ owns many Rv companies including air stream.

My warranty is also up and I do not expect Keystone to come to my rescue in the event of a system failure. I no longer call keystone, I call the vendor of the failed item(most of them have longer warranties) or my extended warranty company. I would do that no matter what brand of camper I had.IMO, only..Keystone is no better no worse than any other RV manufacturer' We had way to many problems with our 3400 but Keystone stood behind the product and corrected every issue to our complete satisfaction.Don't think we would have had any better luck with any other comparable brand. You are also correct about it taking a disaster to bring about change,, The modern air traffic control system is a result of a mid air collision of 2 airliners over the grand canyon many years ago . mtpocket2..you are also correct//if you are not getting what you expected from the product a change is in order,,I can relate to that re: my shinny new 08 6.4 diesel truck. Good luck to all.

Wonder if that's why all the folks want the old Airstreams? I'm at fault also, I didn't research enough, but I won't get caught napping again. We had friends back home that had a Thor Jazz, and it was junk. I was blinded by my desire for a Montana fiver. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not mad about the situation. I have the extended warranty to fall back on. But, unless something major goes wrong, I'll fix it myself unless I find someone in this area that does quality work. Hope you get the 6.4 mileage worked out.

[TLightning]

The key is the almighty dollar. As long as we keep buying them (second units for some) Keystone will not change a thing...why should they? When sales sag, complaints increase, second unit buyers go else where, they are no longer the #1 selling brand...THEN we might see some changes.

I'm with HughM, can you imagine the quality of an Accord or Camry RV!

bsmeaton...Unless you were speaking in jest, I must disagree with your comment about the purpose for using nuclear weapons. Our two nukes saved thousands and thousand of American GI's lives had we been required to assault Japan's homeland to end WWII.

[CmdrDewey]

I don't mean to confuse you with facts but: Thor doesn't build an RV and never has. They are a holding company and they own companies that build RVs and buses but they don't build them. The companies are expected to perform or there are changes but other than that they are left alone. Thor also owns the company that builds CrossRoads RV. Last time I looked CrossRoads was pretty well thought of.

On the issue of quality control-do a little research. On the consumer affairs web site I found in a brief search, recalls for Subaru, Toyota and Nissan. I also found Honda on the government site. Recently AOL ran an article on the top ten most recalled cars of either 2006 or 2007 and if memory serves, Honda and Toyota had four of the top ten. One of the Toyota recalls was for a severe fuel leakage issue in the Lexus.

Bottom line-neither price nor brand is a guarantee of quality. You do your research buy your product and take your chances. I am convinced that the consumer is the most important component of the solution for the inevitable problems.

YMMD

[richfaa]

don't mean to confuse you with facts but: Thor doesn't build an RV and never has. They are a holding company and they own companies that build RVs and buses but they don't build them. The companies are expected to perform or there are changes but other than that they are left alone. Thor also owns the company that builds CrossRoads RV. Last time I looked CrossRoads was pretty well thought of.

On the issue of quality control-do a little research. On the consumer affairs web site I found in a brief search, recalls for Subaru, Toyota and Nissan. I also found Honda on the government site. Recently AOL ran an article on the top ten most recalled cars of either 2006 or 2007 and if memory serves, Honda and Toyota had four of the top ten. One of the Toyota recalls was for a severe fuel leakage issue in the Lexus.

Bottom line-neither price nor brand is a guarantee of quality. You do your research buy your product and take your chances. I am convinced that the consumer is the most important component of the solution for the inevitable problems. "

Don't you just hate it when someone introduces fact into the discussion..Fiction, wives tales, urban legends and just plain BS is always more interesting.Good post David..

[SlickWillie]

quote:Originally posted by CmdrDewey

I don't mean to confuse you with facts but: Thor doesn't build an RV and never has. They are a holding company and they own companies that build RVs and buses but they don't build them. The companies are expected to perform or there are changes but other than that they are left alone. Thor also owns the company that builds CrossRoads RV. Last time I looked CrossRoads was pretty well thought of.

On the issue of quality control-do a little research. On the consumer affairs web site I found in a brief search, recalls for Subaru, Toyota and Nissan. I also found Honda on the government site. Recently AOL ran an article on the top ten most recalled cars of either 2006 or 2007 and if memory serves, Honda and Toyota had four of the top ten. One of the Toyota recalls was for a severe fuel leakage issue in the Lexus.

Bottom line-neither price nor brand is a guarantee of quality. You do your research buy your product and take your chances. I am convinced that the consumer is the most important component of the solution for the inevitable problems.

YMMD

Not confused at all. Direct copy and paste from the Thor Industries website; [Thor Industries is the world's largest manufacturer of recreation vehicles and a major builder of commercial buses, and has been driving for excellence since its founding in 1980.] I guess General Motors is not responsible for the manufacture of Cadillac if your line of thinking is correct.

[richfaa]

You Gotta read the whole thing...click on corporate information http://www.thorindustries.com/