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08-03-2015, 05:14 PM
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#1
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ogden
Posts: 638
M.O.C. #13862
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Pics of the electrical short I found
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08-03-2015, 06:24 PM
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#2
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Box Elder
Posts: 4,774
M.O.C. #12947
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I'm looking at your pictures, and I've seen this kind of damage before. I suspect the monsters under your bed may have been rodents. That damaged area on that green ground wire sure looks like damage caused by rodent teeth.
__________________
Bob & Becky
2012 3402RL
2012 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC 4WD
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08-03-2015, 07:24 PM
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#3
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Montana Master
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Livermore
Posts: 5,182
M.O.C. #1920
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It doesn't appear that there is any way that could rub the insulation that way. For some reason, mice tend to go for plastic. Rubbing doesn't leave chunks of wire like that. I know it is easy to demonize Keystone, but this may not be one of those situations. Good luck with the repair. Glad you caught it.
__________________
Ron and Terrie Ames plus Meg - MOC #1920/KF0NTA
2021Montana 3230CK Super Solar+ Legacy Package
2021 Ram 3500 Laramie Longhorn, BIM Charging
4x4, SRW, LB, Crew Cab, Pullrite 3900 Hitch
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08-03-2015, 08:41 PM
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#4
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Montana Master
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Redding
Posts: 1,421
M.O.C. #12339
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I agree with rodent damage. That said, when did mounting electrical junction to carpeted area become a good idea? The entire thing looks Rube Goldberg to me? Please will a wiser person tell me this is perfectly acceptable? Seems to me a seperation between carpet and wiring should have been made? I can't sleep now!
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08-03-2015, 08:42 PM
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#5
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ogden
Posts: 638
M.O.C. #13862
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ANOTHER UPDATE: I did a bit more investigative work. I'll show pics of what I found. As the slide is drawn in, the 2 connectors at either end of that damaged flexible wire are drawn closer together, being as the one on the floor is stationary and the other is mounted to the bed-frame. The problem is, the moving one gets jammed into and right over the top of the other one. That is what sheared the cable bare. In fact, on close inspection, there are burn marks on the opposing connector as well as the wood divider it is attached to. In the first picture, you can see the 2 connectors drawing closer. In the next picture, they are just short of making contact. In the last picture, I show how much more travel the slide needs to make to be fully closed AFTER contact between the 2 connectors was made. Man...This is sloppy workmanship, and potentially deadly. I can't even believe someone thought this was an adequate way to allow for slide travel in a 120V.line.
Nope...No rodents to blame here...
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08-04-2015, 01:52 AM
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#6
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Lake Gaston
Posts: 8,773
M.O.C. #12156
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You are right! I see exactly what happened. Was this wiring in place to supply the outlet in the bedframe or was there another purpose? I do not have outlets on the frame and thinking, no outlet, no wiring, no need to pull the bed apart. Of course also thinking, ugly, it will bother me till I verify.
__________________
Mike and Lorraine
2002 3655 FL, 2005 3650RK
2010 3665RE, 2015 3910FB
F350 crew cab dually 6.7
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08-04-2015, 02:45 AM
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#7
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Haysville
Posts: 4,261
M.O.C. #3085
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Looks like they just floor mounted the one connector too close to the other(in the open position)causing an extreme bend in the wire cable itself relative to the fixed connection ... leading to your issue. My 3150 or 2980 (can't remember) has a similar connector, but the one end was not screwed to the floor
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08-04-2015, 02:53 AM
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#8
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Davis
Posts: 183
M.O.C. #12956
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The carpet reminds me of kindling for a fire! Just sayin!
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08-04-2015, 03:32 AM
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#9
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: stockton
Posts: 405
M.O.C. #11457
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I' d like to know why the GFI didn't trip. Also, what did that line power?
__________________
2014 Montana Mountaineer 331 RLT. Winneguard SWM Traveler Satellite Antenna, Progressive 50 amp portable EMS, 6 point Level Up.. 2016 Chevy 3500 Duramax Dually, long bed, B&W Patriot hitch.
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08-04-2015, 04:09 AM
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#10
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,359
M.O.C. #6433
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Two things. Someone should have measured and known how far the bed traveled and made sure to mount the one on the floor in excess of that distance. And the one on the floor should have been turned 90 degrees so that the wire formed a loop away from both of the white connectors. Both are just common sense.
As far as the GFCI, it appears the arcing was between the black wire and the white wire. Both of those have discolored copper. The green wire, while also bare, does not have the discoloration on the copper. Since the GFCI measures the current flow thru the hot wire and compares it to the current flow thru the neutral wire, it would not have detected a problem.
But I would have thought a circuit breaker would have tripped. There are pieces of individual copper strands on the carpet. Looks like as a strand would break, it would arc over to the other wire and then burn open. Maybe the individual strand did not carry enough current to trip the breaker before it burned open.
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
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08-04-2015, 06:29 AM
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#11
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ogden
Posts: 638
M.O.C. #13862
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by hunts800
I' d like to know why the GFI didn't trip. Also, what did that line power?
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I'm not sure of everything else on that line, but that particular flex-wire went to the duplex outlet mounted into the bedframe.
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08-04-2015, 06:32 AM
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#12
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ogden
Posts: 638
M.O.C. #13862
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by dieselguy
Looks like they just floor mounted the one connector too close to the other(in the open position)causing an extreme bend in the wire cable itself relative to the fixed connection ... leading to your issue. My 3150 or 2980 (can't remember) has a similar connector, but the one end was not screwed to the floor
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Exactly! Way too close. The floor mounted connector should have been way back towards the foot of the bed to avoid any contact at all.
It was simple math measurements they didn't accomplish: If there is "X" inches of slide travel, then the 2 connectors need to be at least "X" plus a couple of inches apart. Duh...
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08-04-2015, 11:48 AM
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#13
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Republic
Posts: 257
M.O.C. #16103
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This morning I had a chance to look under the bed slide in our 2015 3160RL at the wiring job they did for the slide AC power cables. I've attached some pictures below.
The "short" story (pun intended) is that they do not use enough of the flex cable so that they can be separated the amount that the slide moves.
The bottom of the slide has about 1.5 inches of clearance above the connector on the floor. The flex cable is also installed in such a manner that it loops down towards the floor as the slide moves in. I operated the slide multiple times and observed how the cable moves and is not contacted by the slide. There are no signs of wear on the cable anywhere, the slide has probably over 25 in/out cycles on it.
While mine has no problems, others may not be as lucky. They flex cable needs to be another 12" longer so the connector can be mounted closer to the end of the bed, and rotated 90*so the cable loops correctly.
There should most likely be a safety recall on this one by Keystone. At the very least, others should check under their bed slides if they have AC power wiring in the slide. If anyone finds where their cables are abraded, they should contact their dealer or a qualified electrician for repair. I don't think it is safe to wait on Keystone to decide what to do on this one.
Bed slide extended
Slide clearance over connector
Slide retracted, slide bottom moves over flex wire connection
Dave
__________________
Dave, Barb, and Paisley the Wonder Wiemeraner
Was - 2015 3160RL Legacy Edition & 2014 F350 6.7l PSD SRW Platinum
Now - SOB
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08-04-2015, 02:05 PM
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#14
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Montana Master
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ.
Posts: 1,811
M.O.C. #10552
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First thing no mouse droppings. And looking at the photos it sure looks like the cause was rubbing. Again what I said on the other thread about this issue. Keystone get a tech on a plane and get this resolved. Your liability is growing by the day. JMHO.
__________________
Wayne and Ann Moore
2015 Ford F-350 King Ranch
Firestone air bags, bed saver.
Add 40 GAL tank in bed.
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08-04-2015, 02:31 PM
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#15
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ogden
Posts: 638
M.O.C. #13862
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by waynemoore
First thing no mouse droppings. And looking at the photos it sure looks like the cause was rubbing. Again what I said on the other thread about this issue. Keystone get a tech on a plane and get this resolved. Your liability is growing by the day. JMHO.
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waynemoore...It was for sure not rodents. I found the cause and it is the 2 connectors mounted way too close to each other, resulting in the moving one being driven into and over the stationary one, thereby grinding the wire apart. I'm going to shoot a video of it happening tonight, and I'll post it here. I think. I'll put it on You Tube and put a link here.
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08-04-2015, 07:05 PM
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#16
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Montana Master
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ogden
Posts: 638
M.O.C. #13862
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Here is a video I shot tonight showing exactly how this has happened. Obviously, I've killed the power to this circuit already!
If Keystone doesn't issue a recall over this issue, something is really, seriously wrong with that company!
I've filed a complaint already with NHTSA (National Highway traffic Safety Administration). I can't just assume this is a one shot deal, that happened to my trailer only and still sleep well at night. I caught this simply by a lucky stroke of good fortune, and others might not be so lucky. I feel obligated to do my best to ensure this isn't swept under the bed (sic.)
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08-05-2015, 01:43 AM
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#17
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Montana Fan
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brookline
Posts: 151
M.O.C. #13008
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I have owend several Keystone products over the years. The last 2 Montanas I have to say have really shown the lack of quality that shows where they are going. ( same as all companies I must say ). As some would say back in the day you could expect and receive quality and customer service from keystone. I feel that has left. I think that they are in the profit margin and in this day and time all products have went down hill on quality. Very sad as I was always proud to say I had a Montana. Not so much anymore. Quality control has left Keystone and no one cares there. Until a change in their upper management structure and leadership nothing will change. Hope this comes soon. I hope that they step up and make this right with you Mark, you are lucky you didnt need to try that escape bedroom window. I as many are frustrated but I think they know we are for now are not leaving as there are none out there right now that are better. I have mine in the shop at CW as I write this for the same 2x repair on the same item that should have never went wrong. Just installed wrong. Best of luck in your dealings and repairs. Thank goodnes we have the forum and the facebook site to help each other out.
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08-05-2015, 02:06 AM
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#18
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Montana Master
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Lake Gaston
Posts: 8,773
M.O.C. #12156
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Great video.. Thanks for posting.
__________________
Mike and Lorraine
2002 3655 FL, 2005 3650RK
2010 3665RE, 2015 3910FB
F350 crew cab dually 6.7
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08-05-2015, 02:15 AM
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#19
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Montana Master
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Posts: 2,727
M.O.C. #7992
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Even though I don't have this issue with my rig I really appreciate all the effort you have expended to investigate and record the problem.First class work all the way around.Video really nailed the issue. Jim
__________________
2006 3000RK
2009 Ram 2500
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09-12-2015, 09:34 AM
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#20
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Montana Master
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ione
Posts: 582
M.O.C. #11371
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After looking at the pictures of the electrical under the bed the wife and I went out to check under the bed of our Montana.
MONTANA BIG SKY 3580RL mfg date 3-04-2011
Raised up the King Size mattress that sets on a sheet of plywood and there is another sheet of plywood screwed to the frame directly under the mattress. There is approximately 6 inches of space between the mattress plywood and the sheet screwed to the frame. You can not see the carpet on the floor. On the outside of the bed frame right next to the carpeted floor there is a electrical outlet but you can not see how it is wired because of the second sheet of plywood on the bed frame.
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