Sidewall Crack At Corner of Front Bedroom Slide

[aubford]

Hi there. I'm new here, so let me know if I'm missing any obvious details. I'm wondering if others have run into this issue and have any advice on how to remedy.
2017 Keystone Montana 3950BR. Bought used, no warranty.

Having the issue where the sidewall is bulging and cracking at the bottom left corner of the forward bedroom slide on the driver's side. It appears to be a relatively common issue, though I think mine is different than the frame flex issue. I think it is more like the one in this post: https://www.montanaowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87881.

I attached a TSB that I think illustrates the problem and the official Keystone solution (I'm hoping there is a much less extensive option since my rig is 7 years old).

I was able to scope from the outside through the crack and it looked to me like the vertical aluminum tube (running top to bottom similar to the one outlined in red in the pic) has broken welds at the bottom and has slid about half way off the horizontal tubes that support it. It seemed to me like that is what is pushing out on the wall and causing the bulge.

From the inside I was able to scope the three horizontal aluminum tubes that form the base that the dislocated vertical tube sits on and they appeared to be fine. The bottom one had a 2x2 of wood in it but the other two did not (in the TSBs I've read, they mention putting wood 2x2s in the tubes).

Are there any non-invasive patch up solutions out there that will hold for a year or two? Could you force the dislocated vertical tube back in place and then secure it to the horizontal base tubes with some kind of brace from the inside? This all appears to be happening just behind the bedroom wall which seems like it would be easy to remove. I'm going to run this rig into the ground so I basically don't care about cosmetics at all unless it gets me rejected from campgrounds.

 

[RJS3791RD]

I just had this repair process completed on my 2022. Thankfully it was covered under warranty. Your analysis is most likely correct. The stud pulled away from the floor. The repair process required removal of the front cap and then pulling the skin off the exterior of the wall to expose the infrastructure. The bulletin you have provides the overview. The repair process is about 15 hours. Personally I don’t see a ‘short cut’ for the repair process, not even as a temporary solution. I would suspect if that wall is not secured, it will reach a point where that slide will not function.

It appears as if there was a relief cut in that slide. Was that wall repaired perviously?

 

[Mikendebbie]

Aubford - just thinking out loud here.
If I was in your shoes - I would be looking at working on it from the inside. The prospect of removing caps and sidewalls is more than I could handle. I would rig up some contraption to pull the wall into place and anchor it.

I would remove the closet wall and the wallboard on the exterior walls and assess the situation. The goal would be to install a beam anchored to the floor from one side to the other sort of in line with the closet wall base plate. Maybe the beam is a 4x4 and it is cut short on the damaged side to allow the wall to be pulled into alignment and abut the end of the 4x4. Screw the 4x4 to the floor at 12” oc or more so that it does not move laterally. Beef-up the bottom of both exterior walls - maybe the way the TSB shows…but basically making a strong gusset across the bottom of the exterior walls, strong enough to hold to the exterior wall as you pull them together. The gusset needs to be large (cover a large area of the broken wall - maybe half of the wall???) and would be screwed and glued to the aluminum studs.

Now - pull the wall together with what? Maybe a steel cable with turnbuckles? Pull the wall until it butts against the 4x4 then anchor the wall gusset plate to the 4x4 with a BIG 6x6 steel framing angle or bigger. I would study the aluminum studs to see if they can be anchored to the wall base tube with a small steel angle (I am not a welder + so I have to use screws, glue and steel angles). Build the closet back over the 4x4 and cable, and patch the exterior wallboard with paneling from Lowe’s/Home Depot, then paint it white. The closet could be built back in whatever configuration it took to cover the 4x4 contraption. It does not have to look like the OEM factory condition…just be functional front closets. This amateur approach would not be pretty enough for the factory to try it!

I have no idea if this would work or if it is possible to pull the broken wall back into place…but I am not capable of handling the cap and sidewalls. I might be able to pull this approach off by myself. Does the wall move when you push on it from the outside?

I can draw a couple of sketches to illustrate this if it would help…a picture is worth a lot of words.

Edit - here is the sketch...

 

[aubford]

It appears as if there was a relief cut in that slide. Was that wall repaired perviously?

I bought it used in 2021 and the relief cut was there. I never considered it might have been added by the previous owner. I just figured it was manufactured like that.

 

[aubford]

Aubford - just thinking out loud here.
If I was in your shoes - I would be looking at working on it from the inside. The prospect of removing caps and sidewalls is more than I could handle. I would rig up some contraption to pull the wall into place and anchor it...

This is exactly the type of thing I was wondering about! Since the issue has progressed really slowly (started a couple years ago and only recently bulged enough to be able to see in the crack) I was thinking there must not be a ton of force trying to push the broken stud out so it could just be secured back to the horizontal support if I could move it back in place and then it should stay put for at least a year or two (keep in mind this is coming from a total noob when it comes to body repairs like this). Sounds like it would be even better to have that beam across the floor. Are you saying that would be a wooden beam or what type of material?

Does the wall move when you push on it from the outside?

No, it's solid as a rock if I try to push on it.

 

[RJS3791RD]

Follow up. Having seen the inside of this wall on my own unit after the outside was peeled off, I offer a few other comments.
1. Considering that there is a relief cut in this wall already, I suspect someone has fixed / attempted to fix this previously. To the best of my knowledge, Keystone hasn’t used relief cuts in the production process. Consequently, exactly what you will find when you open this wall is anyone’s guess.
2. These studs are known for breaking away from at the bottom where it attaches to the frame. Not only does this stud anchor the bottom on the wall to the frame, it is also adding rigidity to that front over hang. It is a very integrel part of the skeleton of that infrastructure
3. With this stud being separated, additional force is being placed on the overhang. If this has been broken for any amount of time and you have been moving the unit around on the highway, I would suggest inspecting that frame closely to insure that there are no cracks anywhere else.
4. You need to get that exterior crack / fracture sealed up ASAP. It will draw moisture into that wall and potentially lead to mold on the inside of that wall

I wish you all the best. Please let us know how you address the issue.

Stay safe

 

[jetskier]

Here's how I fixed it on my 2019:
https://www.montanaowners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1194910&postcount=2


To recap: I installed a short piece of 3x2x3/16" angle that's bolted to the frame tubes at the front edge of the slide opening as shown in the first pic in the link. The 3" leg is vertical and notched to clear the track. The smaller 3/8" through-bolt in the sidewall pulls the stud back into alignment and locks the wall to the frame. In order to get the aluminum wall stud to move back into alignment with everything else, I had to use the front landing gear to transfer the load from the hitch to the front legs once or twice. It's been four years, but I think the stud moved while unhooked and the weight was off that part of the wall. The vertical angle is a 1-1/2"x1-1/2"x1/8" about 4-5 ft long. I had to trim the leg that comes out into the room to be equivalent to an 1-1/2"x3/4" angle so it didn't it the wood trim on the slideout when the slide is fully out. There's another through-bolt about 8 inches above the lower one. I simply took out the screw and drilled it out larger. To hold the rest of the angle on the inside up the wall, I just used the existing screws on the inside of the Schwintek track and drill holes in the angle to match then reinstalled the same screws.


Four years later, it's still holding fine. Keystone's fix at the time didn't seem permanent. I engineered this solution.

 

[Mikendebbie]

Aubford - my sketch is showing a 4x4 wood member…only because I am not a welder.

Jetskier’s fix is the way to go. I am going to study his photos to see if I can draw it out for future reference! Or maybe he could throw some sketches down on paper and share with the group.

 

[jetskier]

Jetskier’s fix is the way to go. I am going to study his photos to see if I can draw it out for future reference! Or maybe he could throw some sketches down on paper and share with the group.

I'll make a detail sheet and post it. The parts list is simple.

 

[aubford]

Wow you guys are amazing. I just want to clarify what I'm seeing in your pic Jetskier, did I outline the angle bracket correctly in red there? Is that all one piece?

I'm very intrigued about this solution, this does seem like it might be the way to go. A sketch would definitely help, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the vertical angle.

Your rig does look basically identical to mine, the only difference is my vertical stud is aluminum. Or is yours also aluminum but the black piece is the vertical angle you mentioned? I decided to go ahead and pull off the inside wall so I could be more certain about the issue, pictures attached. It does appear that the stud has slid off the base about 2/3 of the way at this point unfortunately...

 

[aubford]

I didn't mean for the photos to be sideways like that, but not sure how to fix...

 

[jetskier]

I'm very intrigued about this solution, this does seem like it might be the way to go. A sketch would definitely help, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the vertical angle.

I used the vertical angle as a spline/strongback to draw the whole wall section rather than just at the base. I was trying to address the vertical component of the force from the wall when the frame flexes and separates the broken stud from the base aluminum tube. Your photo shows it best.

So in lesser engineer speak, there are two forces to overcome. The stud moving outward and the stud moving vertically independent of the wall base tube.

 

[jetskier]

Here's a preview of the details. Left is side view and the right is top view.

 

[jetskier]

Here's some additional photos of the vertical spline/strongback. I laid it on top of the cover plate on the Schwintek column.

My photos are rotated as well.

 

[Mikendebbie]

Jetskier - outstanding! What software are you using to develop the sketches?
Edit: I assume autocad. I am old enough to have used a Leroy lettering guide but have mostly used pencil-&-paper-CAD in the past 4 decades.

Also - looking at the strong-back angle…besides trimming a leg down to 1” wide, it looks like the top 6” of the 1” leg has been trimmed off…correct?

I think I am seeing a single thru-bolt on the strong-back about 6” above the floor anchor…then self-tapping screws @ 12” for attaching strong-back to the broken stud…correct? And the strong-back is not attached/screwed to the Schwintek H-column…correct?

Your photo below from your original Aug 17 2020 posting…can you clarify what the exterior exposed screw and bolt heads are?

Edit: Consider this post to be RFI#01 !
I will start an RFI log
...and I thought I retired from keeping those logs July 31 after 47 years of writing RFIs and keeping track! I would often tell designers to "spoon-feed the info to the dumb contractor so he does not have to think about it - because if the contractor has to THINK about the detail - you have lost the battle before it begins!"

 

[Carl n Susan]

I didn't mean for the photos to be sideways like that, but not sure how to fix...

Unfortunately, the forum software does weird things to photos. The best thing is to take the pic in Landscape mode. Those show up correctly. Portrait mode pics get rotated in all directions.

If a pic was taken in Portrait mode, you can rotate it to Landscape using any number of photo tools and then upload it again. That usually will fix the problem.

Here is a link to an explanation of the "phenomenon".
https://www.montanaowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83314

 

[aubford]

Wow you are a genius! Are you an engineer or something?

I'm assuming the purpose of the vertical angle is to support the cheap aluminum stud, right? But also wondering why you would use an angle instead of a flat piece. Is that to fend off the slide from pushing against the wall when it is out? Or is that angle sitting on the horizontal (steel) frame tube for vertical support? My other big question is how and to what is that vertical angle piece fastened other than that main bolt fastening it to the aluminum end stud and 3x2 angle?

 

[Reelcamper92027]

Montana Frame Flex

We had the same issue with our 2018 Montana 3120-but our problem was much smaller scale. No longer under warranty!
We are about 3 hrs from Affinity RV Repair Group in Goshen, Indiana (their shop has a common fence with the Keystone factory!)
They repaired the frame crack at no charge & did great work! There were so many RV's lined up for the same problem & also different manufacturers. Keystone was the only manufacturer (as of last June) that was covering the defect! We love our Montana & glad they stood by their product

GOOD LUCK to you on your repair!

 

[Wiggy1]

Yikes! Front frame Issues.

So, 2019 3121RL Monday this week I was looking at the silicone on the right front of my fifth well and it looked like it was pulled away a tad??? Tuesday thru Friday took a 400 mile round trip and had an issue with my front slide then upon further reinspection I noticed a bulge in the left front lower corner just in front of bedroom slide that was not there on Monday...after reading the above posts I am uncertain what route to take? Is this something Keystone is not covering if our of warranty or are they willing to do it?? This seems major to me?? Any suggestions on who to call or ???

 

[aubford]

I just had a tech come over and he agreed we should try to implement Jetskier's solution. Seems logical to give it a shot before going through the inevitable nightmare of bringing it into a shop and having them remove the skin. We were able to move the aluminum vertical stud back into place super easily with a rubber mallet so now we just have to secure it. Thankfully this guy is capable of fabricating an angle bracket like Jetskier's. Just have some outstanding questions on fasteners, but otherwise seems pretty straightforward.

From my research, the "official" solution is to take it to Affinity RV in Goshen Indiana and then some have said that Keystone will cover it even if it's out of warranty. Could also take it to any dealership and it will likely be a $5-8k repair out of pocket. Going to Goshen isn't an option for me right now so I'm stoked there is a better viable solution. Thanks Jetskier!