Mor/Ryde X Factor on 2014 3150RL

[richfaa]

Interesting post.We have one side of the story. We have copied the thread and will go over it with keystone management and the service center while at the rally.

In my opinion no manufacturer has any liability to do any warranty work after the warranty period is over. No auto or car manufacturer that we have had has offered to do warranty work after the warranty period. Many vendor items have longer warranty than the Keystone one year warranty and we have got satisfaction via the vendor warranties after the OEM Keystone warranty had expired.

 

[maximo]

Was under our 2011 Big Sky 3580 RL yesterday looking at the 3 X-Factor Cross Braces and the spring hangers and everything looks good. After 2 years no major problems and we love the RV. We are real happy about the 3580RL refrigerater, head, shower and bed being able to be used with out the slides having to be opened. It really helps for a qiick overnight stop along the road. We are packing the RV now for a weeks stay at our County Fair where the grandkids are showing animals in 4H and Grange. Ain't life just great.

Frank

 

[mail2us]

quote:...in part...Originally posted by Phil P



I spoke to insurance adjusters from Geico and Progressive. That is where the term came from they are very clear about who has good quality and who doesn’t. By the way these adjuster were also clear that all of the work I was having performed was the result of improper assemble at the manufacturer.


Phil P

Confused as I often am, you indicate both insurance companies indicated to you all the work being done was the result of improper assemble at the manufacturer.

My question(s) are: do you have Geico and Progressive insuring your rig? Would not insurance companies stating improper assemble, deny your claim and refer you back to manufacturer, warranty or no warranty. What insurance adjuster would relate such a statement to an insured in the first place? Just askin'?? Tks

 

[3665RE-WO]

quote:Originally posted by mail2us

quote:.

Confused as I often am, you indicate both insurance companies indicated to you all the work being done was the result of improper assemble at the manufacturer.

My question(s) are: do you have Geico and Progressive insuring your rig? Would not insurance companies stating improper assemble, deny your claim and refer you back to manufacturer, warranty or no warranty. What insurance adjuster would relate such a statement to an insured in the first place? Just askin'?? Tks

Hi

A couple of adjuster that was in the facility doing “hidden damage” reports on collision damage to units that had nothing to do with me. The facility owner had them talk to me. You are very correct had my unit been involved in some kind of incident that would have required the insurance company to examine my unit for repairs they would not have paid for any of the work I was having performed because it was all the result of improper assembly at time of manufacturer.

I am self insured except for Liability so I would only get involved with an insurance adjuster if someone else damaged my RV.

You are very correct. The discussion was one between friends and they did inform me that many times they have to inform the owner that they will not pay for the major portion of a repair because most of the cost would be to repair the results of the improper assembly of the unit. They do pay for the portions that would be repaired because of the actual collision.

Phil P

 

[richfaa]

"You are very correct. The discussion was one between friends and they did inform me that many times they have to inform the owner that they will not pay for the major portion of a repair because most of the cost would be to repair the results of the improper assembly of the unit. They do pay for the portions that would be repaired because of the actual collision.

Phil P


I am going to have a chat with progressive insurance company about that as they insure my Montana. By what standard do they determine improper assembly and how do they document it. My agent is a friend of mine and we will him call the company.What stanard do they use for "improper assembly"

 

[Jlb27537]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Interesting post.We have one side of the story. We have copied the thread and will go over it with keystone management and the service center while at the rally.

Rich, If you feel you only have one side, and want more info, send me either a PM or e mail and I will send you the e mails I got from Keystone along with the name of the lady that called me and said my warranty had been voided.

The bottom line is that Keystone has gotten so large they have the impression they are the only game in town. Well look at GM and now Detroit.

When you call Dexter, you can actually get a engineer on the phone, not so with Lippert or Keystone.

Mor/Ryde has been great, sending a engineer from Elkhart to Goshen to get the facts and get back to me.

Keystone's customer service needs help.

 

[richfaa]

It is my opinion that these kind of experiences need to be brought to the attention of keystone at the highest management levels. There is a problem and it has to be addressed and hopefully an attempt made to resolve it. I have heard one to many times when talking to customer service "We have never heard of that problem" well maybe they haven't. Maybe we are not telling them. Maybe a lot of things but they are going to hear about this problem and yes I do want to hear their side of the story.

BTW. When I do have a problem large or small I do not only post it on the forum. I also call customer service tell them about the problem, give them my VIN and it gets "on the record" I also follow up with a E mail to the service person I spoke to and they always reply. When they call up my VIN It spits out a lot of paper ..but.....They have heard of it and I can prove it.' Do we all do that????

 

[Irlpguy]

I find it hard to believe that the “highest” management levels are not made aware of recurring problems, individual ones like jib27537 will likely not be discussed at management level meetings, however if problems which are identified are not discussed and a procedure to determine the extent of said problems is not developed, then they are doing nothing to improve the product and satisfy their customers.

The point I made previously and make again is that the average “Joe” does not have you Rich or others at these meetings and rally’s to champion on their behalf for their particular problem. He/she will call Keystone’s customer service and get the textbook reply “Oh I am sorry that you are having that problem Joe, but we have never heard of that before”. That concern by that individual will go no further than the sweet talking young lady he/she might talk to. This of course is after being fed nothing but Bull #$^% from his or another dealer.

The person on the other end of the phone has been trained to do exactly as they do and that is to deny any knowledge of a problem, therefore right off the bat you are fighting an uphill battle.
Try getting that young lady to put you in touch with a superior or the General Manager of the Montana division and see where that gets you.

Because of the effort you put into bringing this particular problem to the managements attention Rich, it may very well resolve Jib27537’s problem, I certainly hope so.

By far the vast majority of owners of Keystone products will encounter what thousands have already encountered and that is denial of a problem in the first place and denial of warranty secondly. This may not be through direct contact with Keystone and in a lot of instances may be a fault of the dealers. I personally have dealt with it on both ends of the spectrum.

My axle problem was dealt with by my dealer by saying your Keystone warranty is over, therefore there is nothing we can do. Keystone dealt with it by also saying sorry your warranty with us is over.

When I contacted Dexter my first contact was a nice young lady who after hearing my explanation put me directly in touch with a warranty specialist. During this and subsequent conversations with this gentleman, I spoke personally to an engineer who went over the issue with me viewing the pictures I had sent firstly to the dealer then Keystone and finally to Dexter.
There was absolutely no hesitation about replacing the axles, I was also allowed to select the dealer who would install them.
Now that is what I call customer service, I have yet to have anyone relay to me personally that kind of attention from Keystone for just an average Joe customer.

Not the way I would like to see Keystone deal with customers problems but it is what it is.

 

[3665RE-WO]

Rich here is the way it goes.

I had to replace one end wall and half of the floor in the large slide.

The reason I had to replace it was because Keystone when they built the slide used the self drilling bolts that they normally fasten the belly under cover with. These self drilling bolts cut too large a hole for the threads to hold anything in wood. Consequently water leaked down between the inner and outer wall. We could not see it. About 18 months after we purchased we notice streaks from the bottom of the window.

The adjusters one from Progressive and one from GEICO looked at the trailer and the problem. Both told me had the trailer been damage by one of their clients that they would not pay for repair the parts that were the result of the leak cause by Keystones improper use of fasteners. The only thing they would pay for would be the cost of repairing a trailer that was in normal condition.

I don’t find this unreasonable.

Also be aware that the floor, the inner end wall was removed and the rood covering was rolled back to expose the bolts used at the upper roof edge when these fellows looked at the trailer. It was very apparent the water had been running down between the inner and outer walls where no one could see it. It then collected between the plastic covering that is on the bottom of the slide.

I got the same response this poster got. Keystone said they didn’t have any record of that kind of problem.

Then at one of the RV shows when I was talking to someone about my trailer and showing them the trailer a fellow from keystone came to me and said he was the head of customer service and gave me his card and said to call him. This fellows name was Holms. He never would answer my E-Mails and only talked to me on the phone.


I did call him and the bottom line was he refused to help pay for that repair. When I E-Mailed him the VIN numbers of 4 other trailers that Keystone had repaired under warranty for the same problem then he had a fellow by the name of Matt call me and the response I got was “we don’t cross reference those things”.

Phil P

 

[richfaa]

Phil P. Thanks for the additional information. I will inquire to progressive as to by what criteria they establish "normal condition" I would say that progressive or any other insurance company could use the "improper assembly" term for most any Rv brand. I will note that we had 5v holding tanks leak and replaced .One under the OEM warranty that Keystone paid for and four under the extended warranty and the adjustors'" for that company did not determine "Improper assembly". They did inquire if there had been any "modifications" If it was OEM it appears they had no problem.

I am a curious person and my previous training in problem solving tell me I need to have all the data from all sources to make a reasonable d etermionation as to what the problem is and how to solve it.

Add on. We all know that the service center in Goshen is the KEYSTONE service center not the MONTANA service center. They handle calls for all keystone brands all models ,that is a bunch. The service center tech's are not engineers they do attend a school to certify them as service tech by the certificates we see at the service center. Some have been there for a long time others not so long. The service center tech"s are in the same building as the service center but not real near the factory or the assembly line. I would not expect them to be experts on every keysone brand and model.

There have been personnel changes at the service center since the last rally. Darrell Turner, service writer and the person we all had the most direct contact with over the years has moved on. We have not yet met the person who took over. Randy Mast, Title Customer service manager is a person many of us have met. I am not familiar with the name mentioned "Holms" he may be a regional guy. There is a Matt at the service center and he is a service tech .We have met him.

That they 'do not cross reference the problem may be a significant problem to the "we never heard on that "reply. I do know that they can call up the VIN number and give a history of that VIN. I do know that when they call up my VIN to refresh their memory so that we are all on the same page when talking all the information is there.

There are many things I do not know but the information provided here has given me guidance on what questions to ask.

 

[3665RE-WO]

Hi

Just for more information that has nothing much to do with the factory.

The same 2 adjusters gave me the following example of what the company would pay for.

My discretion of the slide problem would not have been covered by their companies under any condition. Apparently they don’t cover “Extended Warranty”.

However they did say that had the damage had happened because I put the unit in storage for the Summer or Winter and had inadvertently left a widow open and the wall and floor had similar damage from the water coming in the open window that the “comprehensive” insurance would pay for the repair.

To put it bluntly one of the said “we pay for stupid” LOL.

Phil P

 

[KathyandDave]

When I worked in a drill pipe factory, we had a "Go /No Go" gauge to stick inside the pipe. It had a narrower tip and a slightly wider shank. The tip had to fit in, so the ID of the pipe was big enough to meet spec, but the shank had to jam, so we knew that the pipe wasn't too big. A gauge like that would be a no-brainer here. But, in my industrial engineering training, we were taught that inspecting incoming parts was prohibitively expensive and, by rights, the supplier should be inspecting the parts as they left its factory. One strategy was to put the receiver's (in this case, Keystone's) inspectors in the shipping factory (Lippert, if I understand this thread correctly) on a spot basis or more often, if the supplier was unreliable.

 

[Irlpguy]

It appears the frame arrives from Lippert with the spring hangers already welded on. The spring/axle assembly arrives from Dexter and the axles are installed on the Lippert frame by Keystone workers on their assembly line.

If the alignment of the hangers when they are welded on is not all it should be, then using the wider hangers would certainly speed up the assembly process, However if Lippert were using hangers with the same width spec as Dexter suggests, and again the hangers were not properly aligned, then assemble would be a tad more difficult and time consuming. This makes a case for using wider hangers.

Maybe a wider hanger is not a major issue. When you tighten the hanger bolt to it's shoulder the oversize hanger will likely bend fairly equally on both sides to remove the extra space. When you add the Mor/Ryde part it allows it to bend only on the one side. In my opinion the spring and bolt then do not fit squarely. Given a choice I would want the same size hangers my Monty came equipped with, and which meet Dexter specs, not the over sized ones.

Since Mor/Ryde and Dexter are off the hook here, I think there is an explanation due from Keystone and Lippert as to why there is this discrepancy in hanger sizes being used. Ultimately the quality of the product out the door is the responsibility of Keystone.

 

[3665RE-WO]

quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy




Since Mor/Ryde and Dexter are off the hook here, I think there is an explanation due from Keystone and Lippert as to why there is this discrepancy in hanger sizes being used. Ultimately the quality of the product out the door is the responsibility of Keystone.

Hi

The spring hangers break whether or not they have been pulled in by the bolts. Keystone / Lippert have been having this problem for years.

The X factor helps but one of the other MOC members has posted the repair that stops them from breaking.

I haven’t been able to find his post using the search function but I know he posted it within the last few years.


Phil P

 

[Irlpguy]

This may be the thread you are talking about Phil, but I cannot get the link to the pictures to work. Pretty sure I know what was done. This would indicate a long standing problem with spring hangers.

http://www.montanaowners.com/forums...&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=spring,hanger,repair

 

[3665RE-WO]

Hi

Here is the repair my metal structures engineer had me do to one of my spring hangers.

The original post about this had the piece between the 2 vertical legs up against the frame. We put ours down further so the X factor could still be used.

If you frame hasn’t failed yet you will not need that long strap you see on my repair.

The frame inner flange on the bottom of the frame had failed. This was after the X factor had been installed.

Notice the brace between the bottom flange and the web of the I beam in the picture on the right side. That was put there by one of the manufacturers not by me.


http://www.sallyscoffees.com/montana-frame-040412/

Phil P