Mor/Ryde X Factor on 2014 3150RL

[richfaa]

The complete axle spring, suspension assembly comes into the factory completely assembled It is at the first station as I remember. The hanger is part of the frame. The workers flip the frame over and install the axle,suspension assembly. My guess is that the bolts used to install the assembly are installed by Keystone workers on the line. I will look at that at the rally. This is on the Montana line and all that is being assembled are Montana's..so..how can one have the right bolt and another the wrong one???

 

[Irlpguy]

Of course the bolts are installed at the Keystone factory when they install the running gear. If the bolts are supplied by Dexter in the running gear "package" then they would be designed to fit properly in their hanger specs. It is not the bolt that is incorrect, it is the hanger. There is no point in putting a hanger bolt in that might properly fit the wider hanger, and which is wider than needed for the springs, that would be as bad or worse than what is now being done.

If Keystone are using the supplied Dexter wetbolt, then this allows the hanger to be pulled together to the same length a proper hanger would allow, thus bending the over sized hanger.

Some hangers appear to be correct like mine and yours Rich, why are they not all the proper size, this is a problem with Lippert and the hanger they weld onto their frames. Ultimately the problem falls on Keystone's shoulders because they should be able to "see" that the hangers are too large and insist that Lippert use the correct size.

Maybe it is easier/quicker to fit the running gear onto the frames when they have more room to work with, in other words the heck with quality control lets just do it as quick as we can with the least effort. This would never happen on a custom built unit of any kind.

 

[richfaa]

I am going to take my measure with me when we do the factory tour in Sept and do some measuring on the hangers that are on the assembly line. I have a good list going and some very good questions.

The frame comes in the door is flipped over and the axle assembly installed. I have never seen quality control at each assembly station. I doubt if anyone at that station is looking to "see" if the hangers are the proper spec. Every assembly line we have seen at the different brand factories look the same. If keystone is having the problem so are other brands. I do not see a tour of the Lippert plant on the schedule but the Lippert folks are always there. This thread goes with me also.

 

[3665RE-WO]

The answer is real simple.

There isn’t any production quality control at Keystone.

Phil P

 

[richfaa]

quote:Originally posted by Phil P

The answer is real simple.

There isn’t any production quality control at Keystone.

Phil P

That is not true. There is quality control. There is a area at the end of the line where you will see red tape inside and out marking quality issues. There is not quality control at every assembly station and there are, as I remember, 14 or 16 assembly stations. If there were the quality of the product would be much better but there is no manufacturer that we have seen in the Elkhart area and we have been in most , if not all of the plants that have that kind of quality control. It would be very expensive and no manufacturer will step up and be first. The truth is that the quality of the Montana product is no better no worse than any other comparable brand. Check out the other brand forums and you will see the same issues. That is just the way it is in the RV industry. Now I do complain a lot and I do let my complaints known to keystone but we knew going in that the quality was not A+ so there have been no big surprises. We are not happy. But not surprised.

 

[Irlpguy]

Having been the owner of several RV's over the past many years, I do agree it is an industry that does not always produce the best end product. However there are some manufacturers that are much smaller than Keystone that are producing a top of the line product.

Quality control does not necessarily mean an inspector at each assembly station all the time, it does mean that on each and every shift random sampling and inspection of the product must be done to ensure continuity and quality. This needs to take place during the assembly, not at the end when most problems have been covered up.

The greatest majority of the problems we encounter as Montana owners could be identified at the factory and should be corrected there. If they choose to ignore a problem or accept it as being within spec then we the end user take the hit.

I do not believe there is a strong case to be made that there is much in the way of quality control measures at the Keystone plant, they could certainly do better.

 

[3665RE-WO]

quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy

Having been the owner of several RV's over the past many years, I do agree it is an industry that does not always produce the best end product. However there are some manufacturers that are much smaller than Keystone that are producing a top of the line product.

Quality control does not necessarily mean an inspector at each assembly station all the time, it does mean that on each and every shift random sampling and inspection of the product must be done to ensure continuity and quality. This needs to take place during the assembly, not at the end when most problems have been covered up.

The greatest majority of the problems we encounter as Montana owners could be identified at the factory and should be corrected there. If they choose to ignore a problem or accept it as being within spec then we the end user take the hit.

I do not believe there is a strong case to be made that there is much in the way of quality control measures at the Keystone plant, they could certainly do better.

Someone with a reasonable idea of what quality control is.

There was a time when Keystone had good quality.

When you talk an original owner at an RV park with an older Montana they haven’t had any of the problems you see here on this forum.

Even their original graphics look good and haven’t been changed.

Phil P

 

[richfaa]

Don't know what they roll of the line everyday now but at the peak production times 2005/2007 they were pushing 22 units a day out the door. In the early days mentioned that number was very small. Some of the very high quality units have very low production per day. More time to manufacturer them more of a chance for quality.

It is true ALL of the problems on the 06 3400 and this 13 3402 can be identified as "workmanship" issues and should never have come off the line. Something as simple as the cable connectors being improperly installed caused me several hours of troubleshooting to correct that mistake. Staples stapled into nothing. Should never have happened. The quality control that we have seen at the plant identifies issues that can be seen not what can not be seen although we have seen red tagged holding tanks.

Tour the Jayco plant not far away and you will see the same assembly line, same vendors and same problems.
IMO the kind of quality control that would produce a high quality unit would add considerably to the cost of the unit and in a very competitive business no single manufacturer will take the first step.. Note that most of the manufacturers that went belly up were among the high quality high $$ manufacturers. Again IMO the major problem is not in the general quality of the vendor provided materials but in the assembly of the those items on the line. I do have a bit of experience in the field of quality control.

 

[3665RE-WO]

You need to look around.

Four companies build a quality unit and offer longer warranty to the original purchaser and their cost new is about the same as what I now have in my 2009 after correcting the improperly manufactured unit.

Phil P

 

[8.1al]

There are many people out there that will say their Montana is a quality unit. Not defending them on this bracket issue though, something needs to be changed

 

[richfaa]

Those brands that have the two year warranty have the same issues. The cost of that extra year warranty is part of doing business for the manufacturer. As evidenced on this forum and others most of us do our own warranty work on the so called small items and the manufacturers rely on that. IMO it would not hurt Keystone to offer a two year warranty on the high end units and that may happen in the near future. It is a great marketing gimmick at minimal cost to the manufacturer.

 

[bw2]

There are some of the "higher" end manufacturers manufacture less than Montana (9 a week / 9 a day) but in my travels and meeting folks who have some of those units, they have the same problems as we encounter. Broken shackles, cracked frames, frame flex, poor decals, etc..... So (imho) in is a crap shoot on what issues each new owner may have when they receive and begin using their unit. As many on this forum attempt to do, individually and collectively at rallys and other opportunities, is communicate with the Montana team about those issues and voice our concerns and opinions. There have been changes made from the 2006/2007 models that have improved in certain areas. The "industry" is still back in the 50s and 60s in how they are built and if we can influence small changes at least there is some progress.

 

[3665RE-WO]

Well there seems to be a problem with the difination of “High End”.

I first heard this term from a company that only repairs RV’s they are not in the sales business.

After that while my Montana was in their facility getting $15,000.00 worth of work performed to repair roofing, florin etc. I spoke to insurance adjusters from Geico and Progressive. That is where the term came from they are very clear about who has good quality and who doesn’t. By the way these adjuster were also clear that all of the work I was having performed was the result of improper assemble at the manufacturer.

Of the four units I am referring to two of them use a box frame and deliver the unit with the IS suspension. These suffer 0 frame problems. One of them uses the same frame as Keystone but put the better Dexter axel under it and the IS suspension again 0 frame problems. The forth one I haven’t been to their facility yet but they are very clear that they don’t use the same venders.

Now for water leaks The two Midwest companies use a system at the end of the production to “pressurize” the trailer so the can check for leaks. These two have 0 water leak problems.

There is no excuse for Keystone delivering trailers with faults like the waste tank level indicator probes installed in the tanks “up side down” or with the bottom probe that is supposed to be 1/3 up from the bottom being only 1 inch above the bottom ant the top probe being 1/3 down from the top. This kind of thing indicates a very big gape in quality control.

Then there was the use of self-drilling metal screws to fasten the wall to the roof. They don’t work in wood. When Keystone refused to pay to correct this problem telling me “no one else has that problem” I produced 4 other Montanans with the same problem that they had repaired the comment was “we don’t cross reference that kind of thing”. This statement alone shows a total disregard for quality control.

Phil P

 

[8.1al]

Phil P,
Can you substantiate that these 4 mystery units have no frame issues?

 

[richfaa]

"After that while my Montana was in their facility getting $15,000.00 worth of work performed to repair roofing, florin etc. I spoke to insurance adjusters from Geico and Progressive. That is where the term came from they are very clear about who has good quality and who doesn’t. By the way these adjuster were also clear that all of the work I was having performed was the result of improper assemble at the manufacturer'.....

at that point with two adjusters from national insurance companies stating that their companies were aware of improper assembly by the manufacturer I would be in touch with my attorney who by the sound of it would jump at the chance of a huge class action suit involving perhaps millions of $$..I myself have progressive insurance on my Montana and we will be having a chat with them. This could change the RV industry...

 

[Irlpguy]

Although I know nothing of the 4 manufacturers that Phil P refers to, I agree with what he has said about quality control where it applies to Keystone products, in particular the Montana lineup.

I view any issue pertaining to suspension/frame as very significant, so lets go back to the OP and review the process that jib27537 went through to have something done about an obvious problem with spring hangers on a brand new unit, we find that initially he was told “I did not have a warrantable issue”. Subsequently he was told that because he “modified the frame” that he had therefore voided his warranty. Incidentally the modification is a product made by one of Keystone’s major suppliers.

After contacting Lippert, who install their own hangers, he is told all warranty must go through Keystone.

Next Mor/Ryde become involved and determine the spec for the hanger Lippert used in this case is considerably different than that which Dexter spec. Now keep in mind here we have some units leaving the factory with proper hangers and some which are oversized and would bend if (a) the Mor/Ryde system is installed or (b) if you tighten up the wet bolt the proper amount, either way the wider hanger will bend on one side or the other or both to take up the extra space.

At this point Keystone retract their position that the warranty has been voided but still offer no resolution to his problem.

Now here is what rots my socks…. Keystone have known about this particular issue with this particular owner since it was first identified to them. Immediately upon being made aware of the issue, there should have been a supervisor sent to the line to inspect the spring hangers for variations in sizing. I would bet that did not happen. Secondly Keystone should have stepped up to the plate and ensured this problem was corrected, not because he is a member of the MOC, but because he has bought the #1 selling product in America.

That folks is why many will look at other manufacturers when they go to replace their units. Yes some of you will jump in and say Keystone has taken care of business many times after warranty is over, and that they have, however that seldom happens to the average Joe and seems to be a consideration to the folks on the MOC who pound the drum the loudest in support of the product and who establish a relationship with certain management staff.

The only reason a 2 year warranty should be a standard on a Keystone or any other product is if there are virtually no issues to have to deal with on warranty, not as a sales gimmic.. They are a long way from achieving that goal IMHO.

 

[bw2]

To help me understand "high end" are these units is the + $100k ? I have a 2006 so I have no idea what the price for a new Montana might be now nor other units by other manufacturers. So to throw a name, are the Mobile & Elite Suites by Double Tree in the high end?

 

[8.1al]

quote:Originally posted by Irlpguy






. Immediately upon being made aware of the issue, there should have been a supervisor sent to the line to inspect the spring hangers for variations in sizing. I would bet that did not happen.

We really don't know what they did do we?
=====================================================================


Yes some of you will jump in and say Keystone has taken care of business many times after warranty is over, and that they have, however that seldom happens to the average Joe and seems to be a consideration to the folks on the MOC who pound the drum the loudest in support of the product and who establish a relationship with certain management staff.



How do we know what happens to the average Joe, whomever that is? Last but not least I take issue with your claim that some of us are only getting repairs made because we have "a relationship with certain management staff".

I for one have had repairs done after the warranty was over and certainly do not have a "a relationship with certain management staff". I also personally know several people that had work done out of warranty and they also did not beat their drum on the MOC and are not tight with Montana

 

[richfaa]

What 8.1al said.. Many of us have the advantage of being able to attend many Fall rallies where most of the vendors and keystone/Montana management are present. We have over the years met many Keystone/Montana management and service center techs toured the Montana plant as well as others. We have met the Management folks at the highest level at Lippert , Mor Ryde and other vendors .We have toured many of their facilities. Speaking for my self that has provided me with a better understanding of how the RV industry works. If meeting the management staff of Keystone and vendors .Going to their seminars and being able to ask questions face to face and better understanding the RV industry gives me some advantage in being able to communicate with those folks then so be it.

I am one of if the major critics of Keystone/Montana and I let them know my concerns every chance I get. I am still on the forum. Not a single Keystone/Montana management person has told me to get lost. I have not had my way on every occasion I deal with them but I am treated fairly. Special treatment ..not hardly...fair treatment..every time if I like it or not.

 

[Irlpguy]

8.1al posted:

quote:

We really don't know what they did do we?

What we certainly do know is that they did not admit that there was a problem and offer to resolve it with the owner, quite the contrary I would say.

How do we know what happens to the average Joe, whomever that is? Last but not least I take issue with your claim that some of us are only getting repairs made because we have "a relationship with certain management staff".

Charlie you will speak to your experience and I to mine, I have spoken with many Montana owners over the past two years since owning one myself. All of those owners had problems, some small and some considerable. I will state emphatically that the majority complained about not being able to get warranty work done, and the outright refusal by Keystone in many cases. I consider myself just an average Joe BTW and I and all the other average Joe’s out there should receive the same consideration on a warranty issue as anyone else, be it while warranty is in effect or after it has expired. Please do not try to convince me that there are not exceptions made based on whom you know and talk to.

Many times we see where intervention by long time MOC members has resulted in a different outcome than the owner was receiving prior to that intervention. You can take issue with that if you choose to, that is what I have seen happen. I will grant you it benefits those that receive that intervention and I applaud those MOC members for helping.
Neither you nor I know what obstacles owners have encountered in their attempts to get warranty, other than from personal contact with other owners and what we read in the forums. I present my personal experience and that of folks I have met and talked to over the last couple of years. I did not state that no one ever received warranty after it was over.

I for one have had repairs done after the warranty was over and certainly do not have a "a relationship with certain management staff". I also personally know several people that had work done out of warranty and they also did not beat their drum on the MOC and are not tight with Montana

When I identified major problems with my axles firstly to my dealer then to Keystone. Keystone would do “nothing” except to say “contact Dexter, your warranty with us is over”. Hats off to Dexter for stepping up and shipping me two new axles. Keystone refused to warranty my microwave oven, which had been replaced in November, because I was away in the US when my warranty ran out in February and did not advise either them or the dealer until I returned 3 weeks after the warranty was over. No thanks to my dealer or Keystone but after contacting the supplier of those microwaves to Keystone, they have stepped up and a local service center will be repairing my microwave under warranty.

We have gone off the track here, what is important is how Keystone responds to issues of concern of any and all owners and their willingness to deal with those issues, and in particular the OP and his problem.