2023 3123RL Legacy AC Airflow - serious issue

[Ozzie66]

Mike, we have a 2024 3123RL. We purchased it last fall and we are now on our second day of our first trip. We have the same problem you described in your first post. The rear AC only cools the kitchen area from the six rear most ceiling vents. The front AC only cools the bedroom, the one AC vent in the bathroom, and the two kitchen ceiling vents next to the pantry. I was scratching my head about this until I saw your post today. ... something isn't right.
We spent our first night in Medford, OR where it was 110 degrees. We ran both ACs and got down to 66 degrees for the night. We are now in Winchester Bay, OR and it got down to 55 degrees last night. I tried our rear AC heat pump this morning and we only got heat from the rear six ceiling vents.
Let's stay in touch until this ductwork/AC issue for 3123RLs is resolved.
By the way, do you know what the top right (of four) rocker switches in the command center area is for? I don't know what it is for. Thanks.
Ozzie

 

[allenclme]

AC Concerns

I have a first feedback from keystone.

According to that our unit was not build with a racetrack air duct system.
It has a H-Frame System - ???

This is because it is prepped for a 3rd AC.

Anyone ever heard about that?
How would that even make sense as the 3rd AC is not supposed to feed into the airducts.

I have the impression they want me to go away.
Quite disappointing.

OK - I just took delivery of a new 3123RL. We brought it home, and played with everything. It was 112 outside and we were able to get the inside down to 88 degrees. Pretty good IMO. I'm going to add the third A/C with the soft start because living in the southwest, we'll probably need it.

I turned off the front AC and the bedroom got warm, but I still had flow. I noticed that the air diffusers are adjustable, and if you turn them the right way, you get more flow into the space. I have the third AC prep and for sure, it's not connected to the ducts. I traded in a 3820FK(2017) and had the same setup - Heat Pump and A/C, with third AC prep. It was also a full racetrack. There's nothing in the Montana advertising documents showing an "H" track that I have found

 

[allenclme]

Mike, we have a 2024 3123RL. We purchased it last fall and we are now on our second day of our first trip. We have the same problem you described in your first post. The rear AC only cools the kitchen area from the six rear most ceiling vents. The front AC only cools the bedroom, the one AC vent in the bathroom, and the two kitchen ceiling vents next to the pantry. I was scratching my head about this until I saw your post today. ... something isn't right.
We spent our first night in Medford, OR where it was 110 degrees. We ran both ACs and got down to 66 degrees for the night. We are now in Winchester Bay, OR and it got down to 55 degrees last night. I tried our rear AC heat pump this morning and we only got heat from the rear six ceiling vents.
Let's stay in touch until this ductwork/AC issue for 3123RLs is resolved.
By the way, do you know what the top right (of four) rocker switches in the command center area is for? I don't know what it is for. Thanks.
Ozzie

And now that I saw your post, I'm going to get mine home this weekend and check the ducts again. I could swear that I felt flow coming from the rear when I turned the bedroom AC off. It would be lame if it didn't since we only have 1 heat pump.

 

[kyjoe1]

I have a 2023 3781 RL. My raceway is connected all the way. I am guessing that one of the joints has failed in that area. Not sure how because there is supposed to be a plastic joint that prevents collapse. Wondering if someone did not install the plastic joint at that point?

 

[Ozzie66]

Craig, thanks for the reply. Please check it out and let us know. Find out what the top right rocker switch in the In-Command center (comes with the Legacy package) is for too.
Ozzie

 

[kyjoe1]

One if the main reasons I bought our rig was based on the Blade system. I love the consumer replaceable filter. The vent adjusters I personally think it are useless. Adjustments make a negligible difference in airflow and severely restrict air movement as a whole. I pulled all of ours out of the ceiling and it’s a game changer as far as I’m concerned. Engineers think too much about the small stuff but don’t aggregate the whole. That pending patent is a waste. IMHO!

 

[suny07]

Could it be possible that both sides of the common racetrack ducts have a Tee at the position a third AC could connect to the duct system when installed? Imagine looking down on it, it would look like an H. Is it possible that the plywood blocks you photographed are blocks for the ends of these sections of ducting?

No, the duct system has no opening where the 3rd AC would be installed. I checked and you can see on above screenshots from the video how this location looks like.
The 3rd AC is not supposed to feed into the duct system.

I can't imagine how inefficient adding a third unit to a ducted system would actually be able effective at all. You're adding an additional 350 CFM of air flow to already undersized ducts, you're adding it near the center of the trunk lines which would only generate more turbulence. If this theory is correct, having sections Tee connected to the trunk lines and capped off, you are still pressurizing that section and getting absolutely no good from it. This looks like a lose/lose situation.

Correct, I think so too.

Did you ever confirm if you were or were not getting airflow throughout the coach with only unit running? Even if you can't feel it with your hand, try putting a couple of squares of CLEAN toilet tissue against the vent. It's very light and takes very little air flow to move it.

Yes, there is little to non airflow on the opposite site of the AC in the duct system.
Check my pictures. There are wood pieces in there. Looks like wall paneling. They are also not cut super accurate to shape so that at the button and at the top of that wood piece we have a slight gap which allows some air too flow.
But this air is too less to feel or see on the other side of that wood piece.

 

[suny07]

Mike, we have a 2024 3123RL. We purchased it last fall and we are now on our second day of our first trip. We have the same problem you described in your first post. The rear AC only cools the kitchen area from the six rear most ceiling vents. The front AC only cools the bedroom, the one AC vent in the bathroom, and the two kitchen ceiling vents next to the pantry. I was scratching my head about this until I saw your post today. ... something isn't right.
We spent our first night in Medford, OR where it was 110 degrees. We ran both ACs and got down to 66 degrees for the night. We are now in Winchester Bay, OR and it got down to 55 degrees last night. I tried our rear AC heat pump this morning and we only got heat from the rear six ceiling vents.
Let's stay in touch until this ductwork/AC issue for 3123RLs is resolved.
By the way, do you know what the top right (of four) rocker switches in the command center area is for? I don't know what it is for. Thanks.
Ozzie

Oh my God, we are not alone. I feel sorry for you too and I guess you are as upset about this as we are.
I have a Keystone approved mobile tech coming today for further investigation and will keep you posted.

Our command center looks like on the pic attached.
From left to right the rocker switches are:
1. Exterior Hitch and Stairs
2. Front Cap
3. Pantry
4. Kitchen over Island

 

[Ozzie66]

Mike, thanks for the update. Yes, we were very disappointed to discover that we probably do not have full unit length racetrack ductwork. Note, the new 2024 Montana online brochure raves about the "pure blade system" but does not mention ductwork. My rocker switches are wired in reverse order to yours (thanks for the pic). What app are you using on your tablet shown below your In-Command panel? Please keep us updated.
Ozzie

 

[suny07]

Mike, thanks for the update. Yes, we were very disappointed to discover that we probably do not have full unit length racetrack ductwork. Note, the new 2024 Montana online brochure raves about the "pure blade system" but does not mention ductwork. My rocker switches are wired in reverse order to yours (thanks for the pic). What app are you using on your tablet shown below your In-Command panel? Please keep us updated.
Ozzie

Good and bad news...

Bad news is that it looks like that Keystone is cutting a small slit a the side of the air duct channel and sticks in a handcut wall panel piece and bend that a little bit around the corner of the duct channel. Then it is taped to stay in place from the outside.

My mobile RV tech first drilled a hole in that wall piece on one side so we could make sure the the duct channel is continuing through behind.
Once we figured that out we started pushing that wood piece to the side so that air can flow through properly.
Than we repeated this on the other side.

Which brings us to the good news that now both of this wall panel pieces are sticking up there on the side of the duct channel and we have air flowing as it should.
That seemed to be the easiest way with the least of damage to the RV.


Their blade system is actually limiting the airflow on the other side of the RV when you use only 1 AC.
Once I pull the blades out in the bedroom, running the living room AC, I have now a good airflow into the bed room.
My guess is now that they closed that middle section off to support that blade system.
Does not look pretty for the moment until I find some other cover for that air duct.

The screen below the InCommand panel is from our Solar install (

).
It's basically showing your energy distribution and consumption between battery, shore power and solar power.

 

[pburger]

I have been in temps 106-108 lately and my 3901rk is maintaining 79 degrees. I removed - vent cover in both the living room and bedroom, removed the filter and set
Both ac fans on high. Fairly comfortable compared to outside. Even had a 118 day.
This doesn’t answer your question tho but could possibly help until you get an explanation or solution

 

[Ozzie66]

Mike, Thanks and Congrats on the fix! We're on summer trip up the Oregon coast and I do not have a ladder with me to get up there and take a look. It's still hard for me to picture exactly how you pushed the wall pieces to the side (and how and why the factory blocked them off in the first place). I have a few quick questions:

1. Is this something that I can do by myself "just push the wood pieces to the side"? I'm sort of handy; I recently installed my DirecTV Trav'ler sat dish on our Montana. Or do I need a Keystone approved tech visit?

2. Did you get Keystone approval for the tech visit, or did Keystone arrange the tech visit? Is this repair a warranty issue? Do you have a contact person at Keystone about this issue? I think other 3123RL owners should know about this.

3. New subject: as a fellow dry camper, do you have any easy solutions for adding extra freshwater, say from 7-gallon jugs, to the freshwater tank? The overflow tube is not very large or handy.
Do you know what the blue pex tube with the white cap that extends below the RV between the axles is for? The ice maker on our 12 VDC Furrion 20 cuft refridge does not make ice. Do you know if the blue pex line under the sink with the shut off valve is connected to the ice maker line or where the 1/4" icemaker line is connected to our RV water supply?

Your solar installation work is most impressive!

Thanks for all the info and may you have a great and successful summer.
Ozzie

 

[Mikendebbie]

Suny07/ Mike - look at my sketch below. Is this the approximate location of those pieces of wall board you found inside your ducts?
I looked at more factory tour videos. It seems that the "H-duct" started with the 2023 models. The other screens shots below are from a 2019 video showing the curved end of the race-track duct system, and the independent "dead-ends" of the new H-system.

 

[Carl n Susan]

This really should be a new Post as it doesn't relate to the AC issue. But never the less, here are responses to part of your questions.

.....
3. New subject: as a fellow dry camper, do you have any easy solutions for adding extra freshwater, say from 7-gallon jugs, to the freshwater tank? The overflow tube is not very large or handy.

There are several solutions discussed here numerous times. The most popular is to use an external 12V water pump (Harbor Frieght has one the many use) to pump water from a 7 gal. jug, bladder, or some other container.
The other way is to use the Winterize port n the convenience center and the on-board water pump to suck up water for the for the fresh water tank. Both methods utilize the tank fill lever in the convenience center.

Do you know what the blue pex tube with the white cap that extends below the RV between the axles is for? The ice maker on our 12 VDC Furrion 20 cuft refridge does not make ice. Do you know if the blue pex line under the sink with the shut off valve is connected to the ice maker line or where the 1/4" icemaker line is connected to our RV water supply?

The ice maker line has two valves . One is under the sink and the other is hidden somewhere along side the refer depending on your model. There are numerous posts about it here on the MOC than can be easily found using the Search function.

 

[Daryles]

H track duct system????

I would have to ask for documentation on that.
Personally I woukd be waving the BS flag.

 

[Mikendebbie]

H-track duct system

I have a first feedback from keystone.
According to them our unit was not built with a racetrack air duct system. It has a H-Frame System - ???

This is because it is prepped for a 3rd AC.Anyone ever heard about that? How would that even make sense as the 3rd AC is not supposed to feed into the airducts.

Suny07 commented on the H-frame system in post #17 in this thread. I had never heard that description - but i started looking at more factory tour vids to verify that claim and see if i could draw it for illustration purposes. No idea if my sketch is correct or not. The H-frame has come to use since they also include the blade diffusers. There is a video where Sam Lingrich(?) discusses how much better it is than the old race-track duct system.

 

[suny07]

Suny07/ Mike - look at my sketch below. Is this the approximate location of those pieces of wall board you found inside your ducts?
I looked at more factory tour videos. It seems that the "H-duct" started with the 2023 models. The other screens shots below are from a 2019 video showing the curved end of the race-track duct system, and the independent "dead-ends" of the new H-system.

Yes, that is exactly where they block it off.

My guess is that there is not enough air coming through the new airbaldes on the opposite site of the AC, when running only 1 AC.
So some genius decided to kill the racetrack and call it H-duct.

I read in some other post that others are also removing those new air blades.

I can run now the rear ac and have not a good airflow in the bed room with the new air blades in.
Once removed there is fantastic airflow in the front bedroom.

This is for sure a step back keystone.

The name "h-duct" came from the keystone tech hotline which was consulted by my mobile RV tech.

 

[suny07]

Mike, Thanks and Congrats on the fix! We're on summer trip up the Oregon coast and I do not have a ladder with me to get up there and take a look. It's still hard for me to picture exactly how you pushed the wall pieces to the side (and how and why the factory blocked them off in the first place). I have a few quick questions:

1. Is this something that I can do by myself "just push the wood pieces to the side"? I'm sort of handy; I recently installed my DirecTV Trav'ler sat dish on our Montana. Or do I need a Keystone approved tech visit?

Yes, I think you can do yourself when you have the right tools.
I went to DIY store and bought a bunch of long tool and a rectangular drill, but it was hard to piece it together properly.
The tech had enough tools to piece the proper length together.
Also I bought a cheep endoscopy cam which is not right for that job if you want to see what you are doing in there.
The measurement where not discussed with keystone as I would also assume they won't approve or support it.
I paid out of my pocket to get the racetrack system back. (~$400 mobile tech)

2. Did you get Keystone approval for the tech visit, or did Keystone arrange the tech visit? Is this repair a warranty issue? Do you have a contact person at Keystone about this issue? I think other 3123RL owners should know about this.

I knew this RV tech from a previous repair and that he is keystone approved. The last issue was warranty and keystone recouped me for that.

3. New subject: as a fellow dry camper, do you have any easy solutions for adding extra freshwater, say from 7-gallon jugs, to the freshwater tank? The overflow tube is not very large or handy.
Do you know what the blue pex tube with the white cap that extends below the RV between the axles is for? The ice maker on our 12 VDC Furrion 20 cuft refridge does not make ice. Do you know if the blue pex line under the sink with the shut off valve is connected to the ice maker line or where the 1/4" icemaker line is connected to our RV water supply?

Your solar installation work is most impressive!

Thanks for all the info and may you have a great and successful summer.
Ozzie

I lost my pump somehow when I sold my last camper. But we used 6 gal can's and a so called transfer pump similar to that with batteries to push water through the ventilation hole in the back.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08L5PFST...=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM&th=1

 

[Ozzie66]

Mike, thank you very much for all the info. I found the second icemaker shutoff valve behind the panel in the cabinet next to the fridge. I hope that I can call on your expertise once I get home at the end of August and look up in there to see and fix the A/C duct problem. Ozzie

 

[suny07]

Mike, thank you very much for all the info. I found the second icemaker shutoff valve behind the panel in the cabinet next to the fridge. I hope that I can call on your expertise once I get home at the end of August and look up in there to see and fix the A/C duct problem. Ozzie

sorry, I did not catch on the ice-maker... we do not use it at all as I do not want to deal with the winterizing of it.

Thanks,
Mike