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Old 03-25-2019, 12:32 PM   #41
BB_TX
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I have no dog in this fight. But how about keeping to the OP’s request. He has said he has no interest in the Andersen.

Andersen vs conventional should be a discussion of its own for those interested. And comparing failure rate of an Andersen to a conventional hitch is ludicrous. The Andersen is relatively new and probably outnumbered by 100 to 1 by conventional hitches. So for one Anderson failure you would have to name 100 conventional failures. One for one means nothing.
 
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:58 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by BB_TX View Post
I have no dog in this fight. But how about keeping to the OP’s request. He has said he has no interest in the Andersen.

Andersen vs conventional should be a discussion of its own for those interested. And comparing failure rate of an Andersen to a conventional hitch is ludicrous. The Andersen is relatively new and probably outnumbered by 100 to 1 by conventional hitches. So for one Anderson failure you would have to name 100 conventional failures. One for one means nothing.
But keep in mind there are others reading this looking for information. He doesn't get to make statements that are opinions and present them as a fact. Next, failure rates are a direct comparison, no matter how many of each there are. They are represented as a ratio, like "X per 100,000.". That quantifies a comparison of failures. As soon as someone, anyone, shows a higher failure rate for Andersen, I'm getting rid of mine. Until that happens it's entirely anecdotal evidence and opinion and that means statistically worthless. Sort of like "My grandpa smoked a pack a day and lived until he was 103." Meaningless, worthless information. I'm a statistician. I am swayed by comparative data and facts. Unfortunately, other people here trying to get valid information to help in their own search might be swayed by unfounded opinions. I wouldn't even bother trying to change the OP's alread-made-uo mind. That would be wasted effort. I'm trying to help inform the others reading this.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:14 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_TX View Post
I have no dog in this fight. But how about keeping to the OP’s request. He has said he has no interest in the Andersen.

Andersen vs conventional should be a discussion of its own for those interested. And comparing failure rate of an Andersen to a conventional hitch is ludicrous. The Andersen is relatively new and probably outnumbered by 100 to 1 by conventional hitches. So for one Anderson failure you would have to name 100 conventional failures. One for one means nothing.
x2. The argument would be to say, one Ferrari GT250 crash is equal to one Honda Civic. Cannot compare the two that way. with millions of civics rolling around you will certainly have more crashes compared the handful of GT250s. Does not mean the GT250 is safer. In fact the GT250 while technological marvel for its time is inherently more dangerous to drive the way it was designed to.

And as long as the benchmark is C-5 aircraft they have a comparatively bad track record... 3 crashes out of 51 placed into service. Nobody is disputing their ability to carry weight but this discussion was about safety in a sidebar to the OPs search for opinion on the two conventional hitches he was looking at. On that score the C-5 is not too impressive. BUt then it does not have much to compare itself with... the C-17 is smaller and no foreign aircraft comes even close to it's capability... and all of them have significant crash history.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:20 PM   #44
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x2. The argument would be to say, one Ferrari GT250 crash is equal to one Honda Civic. Cannot compare the two that way. with millions of civics rolling around you will certainly have more crashes compared the handful of GT250s. Does not mean the GT250 is safer. In fact the GT250 while technological marvel for its time is inherently more dangerous to drive the way it was designed to.

And as long as the benchmark is C-5 aircraft they have a comparatively bad track record... 3 crashes out of 51 placed into service. Nobody is disputing their ability to carry weight but this discussion was about safety in a sidebar to the OPs search for opinion on the two conventional hitches he was looking at. On that score the C-5 is not too impressive. BUt then it does not have much to compare itself with... the C-17 is smaller and no foreign aircraft comes even close to it's capability... and all of them have significant crash history.
Huh? The C-5 analogy was presented as testament to the strength of aluminum vs steel and which is what the Andersen haters always digress to. That's all. The C-5 crashes have never once been attributed to a structural failure.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:17 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mark N. View Post
But keep in mind there are others reading this looking for information. He doesn't get to make statements that are opinions and present them as a fact. Next, failure rates are a direct comparison, no matter h smoked a pack a day and lived until he was 103." .....
Until you can post actual percent of conventional hitches in service that have failed statistics vs percent of Andersen hitches in service that have failed statistics, failure comparisons are meaningless. And I would challenge you to find and post those numbers. Otherwise your statements are simply your opinion. No different than any one else.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:07 PM   #46
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Until you can post actual percent of conventional hitches in service that have failed statistics vs percent of Andersen hitches in service that have failed statistics, failure comparisons are meaningless. And I would challenge you to find and post those numbers. Otherwise your statements are simply your opinion. No different than any one else.
Yeah, except for one HUGE difference. I didn't spout off about the safety problems of any other hitch brand like the OP did. I didn't call some other brand "garbage" like the OP did. I didn't claim some particular hitch was an accident waiting to happen like the OP did. I didn't start acting like a mechanical engineer talking about adapters and stress points and failures like the OP did. I simply challenged the OP's attempt to present his opinion as some sort of relavent fact. I only stated one fact in my post: That for every Andersen incident, I'll counter with the same for any other brand. Everyone needs to understand that you don't get to throw out negative opinions about something, disguised as facts based on science (when there is none) and not expect rapid and direct pushback. It's not like he posted saying "Thanks, not interested in Andersen." Nope. He decided to call them an accident looking for a place to happen. He decided to call them garbage and tried to justify it with some kind of mechanical engineering reasons that had no basis whatsoever in actual mechanical engineering design. Anyway, for anyone considering hitches, disregard posted "facts" about their design failures and do your own research.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:41 PM   #47
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Gentlemen, how about grabbing a couple of snickers and take the discussion offline.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:42 PM   #48
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........:
I only stated one fact in my post: That for every Andersen incident, I'll counter with the same for any other brand.........
And that is a meaningless “fact”.

As a statistician you should be the first to admit that any comparison statement is meaningless unless you provide meaningful numbers. A simple one for one is useless.

There are conventional hitches in service that are 20, 30, or more years old. Sliding bar, clam shell - old design, clam shell - newer designs, wrap around, etc. Andersen is a new comer. To present a truly accurate comparison you would need to break down the comparisons to type and age. And to be further accurate, you would need a breakdown on equipment failure vs operator error.

Thus far no one has presented any data at all. Therefore everyone has expressed an opinion and nothing more.

OK. I am done.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:56 PM   #49
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And that is a meaningless “fact”.

As a statistician you should be the first to admit that any comparison statement is meaningless unless you provide meaningful numbers. A simple one for one is useless.

There are conventional hitches in service that are 20, 30, or more years old. Sliding bar, clam shell - old design, clam shell - newer designs, wrap around, etc. Andersen is a new comer. To present a truly accurate comparison you would need to break down the comparisons to type and age. And to be further accurate, you would need a breakdown on equipment failure vs operator error.

Thus far no one has presented any data at all. Therefore everyone has expressed an opinion and nothing more.

OK. I am done.
well, actually the only opinion I offered Is that I would never in a million years go back to an old school hitch. Beyond that, I offered no opinions about any hitch or brand at all. The opinions offered about hitches were all someone else's opinions,with me jumping in and challenging that very thing because they were offered like some kind of data points. I in fact made it a point not to advance anything at all about Andersen hitches over any other brand. I simply pointed out that evidence exists that they all fail and the fact that they are aluminum means nothing as related to failure rates. Yeah, I'm done here now, but I sure hoped I pointed out to someone else investigating hitches that there's a lot of haters floating opinions around as though they are mechanical engineering facts. When someone acts like an expert in something they've never owned or had experience with, and start calling things "garbage", it's time for someone to raise the BS flags. If they can't stand that kind of heat, they need to learn to not say things that light the fire in the first place. How about "Ford and Chevy diesel pickups are garbage and I'll tell you why" though I've never owned one. Same nonsense.
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:12 PM   #50
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Mark, judging from your join date and number of posts you should be well aware that there are members here who present erroneous opinions as facts quite often, and no amount of factual evidence will change their mind. I too get my feathers ruffled when I see post after post with false information and I also have felt the need to challenge, and indeed have done so. This could easily be avoided if they would preface their post by saying, I think or in my opinion or something similar.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:01 PM   #51
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There are other brands of hitches besides B&W?
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:25 PM   #52
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I'd wager the Andersen has a place in the towing world. But likely... on trailers with GVWRs under say 15K, maybe even less. Over that it might be an idea to consider hitches designed to cushion the weight of those heavier pins. The stresses on the trailer frame and the anecdotal evidence say a goose neck and ball setup is probably hard on the supporting frame at those locations on the trailer because it transmits the shocks of transit directly. Adding a ball receiver to an air pinbox is to change the existing geometry and subjecting it to unintended stresses.

In absolute numbers, yeah... there have been more damage situations involving convention hitches but on a "incidents per hitch" basis you'd be hard pressed to say, with authority, the Andersen is better. But blaming the hitch..... I stand by my "opinion" mostly it's operator error, not the hitch.

On the right type of trailer under the right circumstances I'd no have trouble choosing an Andersen if appropriate for me.

But we digress... the OP is not interested in an Andersen.

I am far from saying the Andersen is better, if we look at everything its far from better, I can't even say they are equal, and I don't even like going this far ,because it is opinions.

I know I started this debate, by asking the OP if he considered the Andersen. Its been pointed out, he began the bashing, with nothing but opinions. Not called for, there was no need.
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:26 PM   #53
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There are other brands of hitches besides B&W?

Where is the like button
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Old 03-27-2019, 06:46 AM   #54
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I'll offer this then I'm done on this. People buy on the basis of opinion. Very few, if any, buy strictly on facts. I say this because nobody and I mean nobody can know enough to be completely informed. If people like Brand X, they will buy Brand X. Same for any other brand. You buy based on your comfort zone and your knowledge level. That's as closed to an informed decision as anybody will ever get. It is apparent how much passion is involved in decision making. Manufacturers, of hitches in this case, love that passion... it amounts to free advertising for them.

But that is just my opinion. LOL
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