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Old 04-17-2014, 10:46 AM   #21
Hooker
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

...Why can Keystone sell for so much less. Are they marked up more then sold for less?? It is something to think hard about...
That could be one answer, my guess is that the number of Montanas on the road and the volume that they sell has something to do with it.
 
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Old 04-17-2014, 06:04 PM   #22
Artemus Gordon
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quote:Originally posted by HOOK

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by DQDick

Thanks Carl that was very informative.
I wanted to do something similar to what Carl and Susan did, but didn't want to appear to be using the MOC to sell Montes.
I have always felt your posts were honest and not self serving. It's a tough and narrow walk, but you do it with sincere appreciation for the product! Thanks for your continued input!
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:16 AM   #23
sola123
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We also seriously considered a Big Horn...but the Montana just seemed a little bit nicer fit, and we have not regretted it for sure....
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:39 AM   #24
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Sounds like most of us had the same opinions when comparing the BH to the Montana. We were so close to buying a Heartland that we even joined their forum. At the last minute and talking to friends, we took another look at the Montana. Again, price, features and bang for the buck won us over to our second Montana.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:49 AM   #25
rames14
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And not one mention of the MOC, which is what will keep us in the Montana line. Over the last 10 1/2 years we have gotten to meet and know many of the people on the forum. We have shared in joys and sorrows, purchases, regrets and issues. Over that time, many of the changes in Montanas have been a result of the people on this forum. And trust me, just mentioning you are a Montana owner carries weight when there is an issue. When Big Horn or Cedar Creek package the MOC with it, we'll look at them.
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Old 04-18-2014, 12:40 PM   #26
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Good observation Ron. We too value the MOC as part of the overall ownership experience.


Quote:
quote:Originally posted by rames14

And not one mention of the MOC, which is what will keep us in the Montana line. Over the last 10 1/2 years we have gotten to meet and know many of the people on the forum. We have shared in joys and sorrows, purchases, regrets and issues. Over that time, many of the changes in Montanas have been a result of the people on this forum. And trust me, just mentioning you are a Montana owner carries weight when there is an issue. When Big Horn or Cedar Creek package the MOC with it, we'll look at them.
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:58 AM   #27
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We looked at both the Bighorn and the Montana for over a year and here are the reasons we chose Montana over the Bighorn.
1. Better resale value on the Montana (this was evidenced by several dealers which carried both the Montana and Bighorn)
2. Montana stereo components were name brand
3. Montana had Arched ceilings
4. Montana had Real wood fascia around slide-outs
5. Montana had Name brand axles and suspension systems
6. Heard from several sources that there were moisture problems on the ceiling due to solid foam insulation and poor ventilation on the Bighorn. In some cases, delamination occurred.
Bottom line, for essentially the same money, we thought the Montana had a much better value and reliability. We lived in our Montana now for over 5 months and thus far have experienced very few problems. We have seen couples with brand new (SOB) 5th wheelers costing 20-30K more that are called "residential" or "full timing 5th wheels" that have had a number of mechanical issues and assembling problems which malfunction and plague the owners.
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:27 AM   #28
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It was between Montana and Bighorn for us as well but the 6 point level system, arched ceilings, desk area of the 3402, and resale values of Montanas, the final decision was a no brainer. After joining the MOC, attending the Fall Rally and the friends we've met, we are hooked!
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Old 05-03-2014, 11:58 AM   #29
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I strongly recommend you take a short vacation and treat yourselves to a plant tour of each plant. they are within a few miles of each other. You will be able to see each unit during various stages of construction and see the materials used in each. We feel that both are good units but after the plant tour we chose Montana.




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Old 05-04-2014, 06:36 AM   #30
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I will be completely honest... The Montana cost less .At the time (2005) the Jayco was at the top of our list.There were some better things on the Jayco but could not see paying the significant difference in price. In 2013 the Redwood and Heartland were at the top of the list and we came very close to the Redwood. We felt both of those units were all over better than the Big Sky but for the price not that much better. IMO keystone has among the best customer service. Other brand have owners groups just as valuable as the MOC.

We have toured the factories more than once and just see little difference in Vendors, material or quality. Floor plan and price were the determining factors for us.

the Keystone service center has served us well and the fall rallies that we are fortunate to be close enough to go to every year have been a huge advantage.
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Old 05-04-2014, 08:05 AM   #31
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When we traded in our Cedar Creek TT in 2012, I felt confident I had closely researched all the 5th wheels and we were leaning strongly towards a Landmark or Big Horn. We went to the Salt Lake RV show to get a closer look at what we were considering. At the show, we met our area Montana Rep, Charles Wade, and I asked him straight out "Why should I buy a Montana instead of a Landmark/Big Horn. An hour later we were convinced! Understanding more now, I went to other dealers and asked more intelligent questions and got answers such as "We can GET that for you" when I knew it was standard on the Montana. Subsequent to buying I continue to observe friends 5ers and their fit/finish/use of materials cannot come close to Montana.
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Old 05-04-2014, 08:32 AM   #32
richfaa
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This is good fit and finish and others are worse??? Then we are indeed glad we purchased the top of the line, best you can buy, Montana Big Sky.

This is on record under our VIN. This was a recent E mail sent to selected Montana reps.

2013 3402 Big Sky delivery date June 2013



For your information.Most of this should be on record under my VIN 4ydf34026d4700191.

We have a appointment at Town& Country Rv our selling dealer on MY 5th for repair of two leaking holding tanks.We figure it will be there for awhile no doubt canceling out our Rally and N.E summer travel plans. We have the GS Extended warranty and have opened a claim for the tank repair.The tanks, gray and galley failed while stationary at our Winter residence in Florida. We do keep the valves on both closed and dump to clean out the sewer hose every two or three days. We want this Big Sky to last us another 3 or 4 years to complete our USA and Canada travels but must have confidence that it will stand up to the use. We will have the unit inspected at Town and Country and will repair any suspected faults at our own expense. We had planned to have the Mor Ryde IS installed as we had on our 06 3400 but only if our confidence in this unit is restored.

We do not know what to do about the paint chipping on the front panel.It looks really bad. Our options are 1. have the paint removed from the front panel.2, Rhino coat, Lin X coat both very expensive. We will consult with Town and country and Maple City Collision and paint. We have the rock tamer system and it was little help. Any suggestions will be helpful. We are very disappointed with this 2013 Big Sky.We thought it would be a step above.



1. Black , gray, galley tank indicators not accurate. Black tank failed two week after we got the camper.

2. Latch on pantry door not properly installed. Door would not close

3. Border alongside the stove peeled off the first time we boiled water.

4. Latches on most of the drawers would not keep the drawers closed in transit. The ones in the PC desk were not properly installed.

5. Satellite and cable inputs reversed in the convenience center.

6. Microwave /convection oven would not come up close to set heat.

7. Some brackets holding down the curtains are pulling out of the wall.

8. Struts on the compartment doors are pulling out of the door. They are screwed into basically nothing.

9. Propane regulator reads erratic sometimes all red, sometimes all green, sometimes half red. Half green.

10. Valve stem in one tire worked loose from rim causing loss of tire pressure. Had to change tire on the road another has a slow leak.

11. Lug nuts are rusting, all of them.

12. Various screws along fender wells are rusting a couple were missing.

13. Screw on bracket on fender well keeping fender from flapping completely missed its mark causing issue # 12

14. Torque on U bolts on suspension were all under 40LBS..

15. No heat in John room or in front compartment.

16. John foot pedal came off, retaining ring came off flooding the camper

17.Left rear landing gear will not fully retract

Items 1,2,4,5,6,7 were corrected at the service center at the 2012 rally.

Item 3 we peeled it off and trashed it, bad idea to have it there.

Item 9. Propane regulator still does that but it works. Service center would not replace since it works. Will just wait till it fails and replace at our own expense.

Item 10.Road service call replaced the tire with the spare .Goodyear in Florida replaced the stem at no charge to us but suggested we replace all the low quality rims as they are prone to failure.he said he could not carry that quality rim.

Item 11 as of May 8th all lug nuts are rusting. To replace with Mc Gard quality lug nuts #64805 will cost me 228.00 for all the lug nuts.

Item 12. We are replacing with quality screws that will not rust.

Item 14.Torqued to specs recommended by Dexter at the 2012 rally



Item 15. The heat duct to the John room was never connected .We connected it.

Item 16 was a vendor issue corrected by them under warranty. The pedal was not installed properly.

Item 17.Still will not retract is 4 to 6 inches short of going up all the way.no sign of fluid leak, resorvoir correctly filled.

Item 17 is corrected. Added some fluid to the reservoir although it did not indicate low..

Now back to Item 8. On may 5th when we opened the compartment door the hinge plate tore completely away from the door. The door fell down of course missing my noggin and also tore the lower right strut off the hinge. Although you folks claim to have not heard of the issue apparently Keystone knew about it 2 years ago. We did the fix .Canít take it to a dealer as there is no Keystone fix. Hope there is a fix by the fall rally as the compartment door is ruined.

18.Noted bubbles on the side of the roof. took pictures sent to Robyne at service center.

19. Pendant light over counter. The socket fell apart on one while attempting to change out a bulb.the glass on the othet one fell out while in tr avel and broke into a 100 shards .Combined parts of the two and made one good one. Reported to service center.

20 .Now note a large bubble on the left side compartment door.

21. Fridge doors leak . Fridge stopped cooling. Cooling unit replaced by Norcold in Florida under warranty

22.Rear screen window will not open or close properly.

Additions

23. Another valve stem failed. Tire pressure monitor caught the decrease in Psi and Road service changed the tire.

24. November 2013 two gray tanks, galley and shower/bath failed while stationary here in Florida at our winter residence.

25. Wall panel alongside the stove and the panel in the closet by the Ardmore pulled away from the wall on the 1,200 mile trip to our Florida residence. Ardmore shelves collapsed . October 2012

26. Pendant light replaced at the fall rally by keystone customer service.

27.Had our 15 mins with the service tech at the fall rally and he took note of the Roof bubbles, Compartment door delamination and compartment door hinges pulling out .No action taken.

28 Facing panel over the kitchen slide fell off the wall. April 2104



29. lost one phase of power in Florida. Wires in the 50 amp plug had pulled loose. Repaired and replaced with a 90 degree plug to relieve stress. November 2013

30. Most of brads on the bottom dining room chairs have pulled loose.

31. Severe chipping on the front panel paint. We have tried the rock tamer system with no success. IMO it was a bad idea to paint the front panel but it is done. Suggestions on how to solve the problem are appreciated.

32. The unit is 22 months old and had travelled aBout 9K miles.
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Old 05-04-2014, 09:04 AM   #33
Artemus Gordon
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We have three times you mileage on our 2012. With exception of a couple of slide problems, we have had no where near the problems you have reported. It's solid as day it was purchased ! Good luck, hope problems get addressed!
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Old 05-04-2014, 11:25 AM   #34
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Rich I'm sure the Tea family will do every thing possible to help you. They are some of the nicest people I have ever dealt with.
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Old 05-04-2014, 11:37 AM   #35
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I found this link with Montana vs. several other makes: http://www.couchscampers.com/pages/montanacomparisons. Check it out!

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Old 05-04-2014, 12:27 PM   #36
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Wow! Sorry about all your problems. Having read your posts for the past few years, I know that you will get these resolved. We started with the 2001 2880 and now the 2010 3000RK and haven't had a year going down to Arizona without a problem of some sort. Quality isn't there and assembly very poor. We like the trailer, just not happy with grade of materials and assembly. Good luck Rich
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Old 05-04-2014, 12:44 PM   #37
richfaa
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It is what it is and the list is factual. Perhaps the lemon route is the way to go. I have never had a lemon of any kind before.
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Old 05-04-2014, 01:33 PM   #38
Irlpguy
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by patc73

I found this link with Montana vs. several other makes: http://www.couchscampers.com/pages/montanacomparisons. Check it out!

No reflection on the OP but:

When you have comparisons done on a different selective set of criteria for each individual comparison you do not have anything that provides 2 cents worth of comparison value.

What this website suggests to me is when these comparisons were made they were very careful not to select a criteria where the Montana came in second or lower. I guess these people think that all potential RV purchasers are somewhat retarded.

Note that they are a Montana dealer, perhaps Keystone pays for their website costs.

Value to customer - Zero
Good for a laugh - Priceless

JMHO


Rich if the front of my Montana were to show what you describe I would consider light weight diamond plate. Although it might not give the same affect as your full paint job it would prevent further damage and if finished properly looks good. Again just MHO and suggestion.




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Old 05-04-2014, 02:04 PM   #39
Artemus Gordon
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Rich the "Lemon laws" as you are most likely aware are State specific. While your list is long, many if not all the items would not qualify, even under the most liberal State Statutes. Please don't shoot the messenger as I type here, but one condition of most laws is "lack of use of rig" for long periods of, uninterrupted time. Loose screws, drawer hardware not being installed properly, rusting bolts, are limited to 90 days in most instances. I assume all your issues either have been addressed, or being addressed. The "length of your list " is really not relevant. Many items you listed, are time sensitive on your part. It comes down to questions of problems being addressed, and safety concerns corrected in a timely manner! Components like Microwave ovens, dining room chairs, rusted screws, failure to torque bolts, are not going to even be considered in a "Lemon Law" claim. What if's also don't fly. "What if the wheel fell off and I was injured"? The law generally does not help you unless you were injured. While again it's a long list, these items are more inconveniences, as opposed to life threatening product failure. Let's face it, the trailer is ultimately your baby, and makes you responsible as time passes. No matter how "great the brochure seemed" or how much you were told, a "Big Sky", Big Horn, are built, they are just "mid level" trailers going down the road. I hope you don't get angry, but it's the reality of the situation. I have dealt with these issues on other products, and once was in the manufacturing business. At some point you are on the hook, not the manufacturer. I suspect many of your complaints are common with many rigs from every manufacturer. My neighbor has a very expensive SOB, that had very serious problems, two specifically, that could have gotten someone killed! I really think it's the nature of the beast? I am sorry about your issues and am not making lite of them, but frankly most are simply not that serious IMHO !
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:47 AM   #40
richfaa
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Ed.. Diamond plate is on our option list but it is super expensive. LinX is another option.I am going to see if we can have the paint removed without damage to the gel coat under the paint. Note that it appears that the front panel is no longer painted on the new models.
Artemus.. You are 100% correct.Did some Goggling on Ohio State lemon law and I have no chance. We do understand the reality of Rv ownership and I post reality here. My list was not to describe serious issues but the reality of ownership. There are many here that have the " don't tell me anything I do not want to hear" mind set and that is just fine.

We are hooked up and ready to go.
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