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Old 06-04-2013, 04:09 AM   #21
richfaa
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

You are correct Dave My U bolts worked loose on our 06 3400 and I had never checked them for torque.

Like I said. I asked the question of Dexter from a person who should know the answer and that is the answer I got. There are many here who know Glenn from the rallies and he is not from accounting. I will be asking "why" to day. Till then what he said stands with me.
Glenn is not in the office this morning but will be this afternoon. We will talk.
 
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:36 AM   #22
steelpony5555
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Hmmmmmm, yep my U-bolts were loose on my rig when I got it...took my trusty socket wrench and snugged them all down. Didn't feel a need for a torque wrench since I don't think there is a strict tolerance there. I use it when I rebuild a motor and when I'm working on my bike and even on lug nuts to be sure I got them tight enough. But just to tighen down misc bolts like on leaf springs and u-bolts I have never bothered with it. Just gotta watch you don't strip or snap one off.
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:16 AM   #23
richfaa
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Ok spoke to Dexter again this AM. Falling back on my verifying data from my working days we spoke to a different person at Dexter and asked the same question.. Understand now I know nothing about the subject I am just a guy who has a Montana and was seeking information that I was not sure of from folks who should know the answer.

What Glenn said holds.. Go to your Dexter Axle operation maintenance service manual that came with the unit. Go to page 65 paragraph titled...... Suspension Fastener Torque Values. We have the 1/2 inch U bolt and the torque is listed as min 45 max 70. Now look at #1 at the bottom of the page "Support the trailer with the wheels just off the ground"

then.. I asked if we Torque to say 60 lbs On the ground what is the effect on the torque. They did not have the numbers for that except to say it would NOT be correct. How much NOT correct they could not tell me. Perhaps there is a qualified person here who can do those numbers. Any how I asked two, actually three people at Dexter who were qualified to answer the question. Dexter makes the axles and suspension. It stands with me till someone can give me verified data that is is not true.

I am just passing on information that might be of interest to forum members ..That is what we do here.
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:22 AM   #24
grayghost03
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Thanks Rich, appreciate you time and efforts.
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:57 AM   #25
simonsrf
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Ok spoke to Dexter again this AM. Falling back on my verifying data from my working days we spoke to a different person at Dexter and asked the same question.. Understand now I know nothing about the subject I am just a guy who has a Montana and was seeking information that I was not sure of from folks who should know the answer.

What Glenn said holds.. Go to your Dexter Axle operation maintenance service manual that came with the unit. Go to page 65 paragraph titled...... Suspension Fastener Torque Values. We have the 1/2 inch U bolt and the torque is listed as min 45 max 70. Now look at #1 at the bottom of the page "Support the trailer with the wheels just off the ground"

then.. I asked if we Torque to say 60 lbs On the ground what is the effect on the torque. They did not have the numbers for that except to say it would NOT be correct. How much NOT correct they could not tell me. Perhaps there is a qualified person here who can do those numbers. Any how I asked two, actually three people at Dexter who were qualified to answer the question. Dexter makes the axles and suspension. It stands with me till someone can give me verified data that is is not true.

I am just passing on information that might be of interest to forum members ..That is what we do here.
The process of torquing the bolts with the suspension off the ground and then putting the wheels back on the ground and measuring the torque value shouldn't be that hard.

My guess is that the values are so different that they are covering their a**es from a possible lawsuit. Rich, I doubt you will ever get your question answered.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:10 AM   #26
richfaa
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quote:Originally posted by simonsrf

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Ok spoke to Dexter again this AM. Falling back on my verifying data from my working days we spoke to a different person at Dexter and asked the same question.. Understand now I know nothing about the subject I am just a guy who has a Montana and was seeking information that I was not sure of from folks who should know the answer.

What Glenn said holds.. Go to your Dexter Axle operation maintenance service manual that came with the unit. Go to page 65 paragraph titled...... Suspension Fastener Torque Values. We have the 1/2 inch U bolt and the torque is listed as min 45 max 70. Now look at #1 at the bottom of the page "Support the trailer with the wheels just off the ground"

then.. I asked if we Torque to say 60 lbs On the ground what is the effect on the torque. They did not have the numbers for that except to say it would NOT be correct. How much NOT correct they could not tell me. Perhaps there is a qualified person here who can do those numbers. Any how I asked two, actually three people at Dexter who were qualified to answer the question. Dexter makes the axles and suspension. It stands with me till someone can give me verified data that is is not true.

I am just passing on information that might be of interest to forum members ..That is what we do here.
The process of torquing the bolts with the suspension off the ground and then putting the wheels back on the ground and measuring the torque value shouldn't be that hard.

My guess is that the values are so different that they are covering their a**es from a possible lawsuit. Rich, I doubt you will ever get your question answered.
back in my working days these were the kinds of questions that I had to have answers to. We will be there for the fall rally. Dexter will also be there for seminars and installation and repairs. I will pursue the question They all said it was simple physics.. well physics is not simple to me it was something you did to take a big crap.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:57 AM   #27
jlb27537
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I can understand the logic of raising the wheels off the ground, IF the axles were on top of the springs. If they were then the U-bolts would be carrying the load of the trailer.

However if the axles are under the springs the U-bolts carry no weight and only serve to keep the axle connected to the spring. In this case there would be no reason to raise the wheels off the ground.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:04 AM   #28
Irlpguy
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Quote:
quote:

richfaa wrote:

Ok spoke to Dexter again this AM. Falling back on my verifying data from my working days we spoke to a different person at Dexter and asked the same question.. Understand now I know nothing about the subject I am just a guy who has a Montana and was seeking information that I was not sure of from folks who should know the answer.

What Glenn said holds.. Go to your Dexter Axle operation maintenance service manual that came with the unit. Go to page 65 paragraph titled...... Suspension Fastener Torque Values. We have the 1/2 inch U bolt and the torque is listed as min 45 max 70. Now look at #1 at the bottom of the page "Support the trailer with the wheels just off the ground"

then.. I asked if we Torque to say 60 lbs On the ground what is the effect on the torque. They did not have the numbers for that except to say it would NOT be correct. How much NOT correct they could not tell me. Perhaps there is a qualified person here who can do those numbers. Any how I asked two, actually three people at Dexter who were qualified to answer the question. Dexter makes the axles and suspension. It stands with me till someone can give me verified data that is is not true.

I am just passing on information that might be of interest to forum members ..That is what we do here.
Rich thanks for all your work in trying to prove what Glen had originally said was in fact true. I would like to point out to you and the rest of the folks you spoke to at Dexter that the section you pointed to in the manual has absolutely nothing to do with torquing the cotton picking U bolts.

If you read the wording above line #1 you will see this section clearly refers to changing worn bushings, sagging or broken springs. There is only one reference to U bolts in the whole description and that is in the disassembly instructions.

If you were performing any of the above repairs, when you put everything back together you would undoubtedly torque the U bolts while the wheels were off the ground for convenience sake, not because it would make the difference between 45 and 70 lbs if you did not.

If it were in any way a concern or the Dexter suggested method of torquing the U bolts then I would suggest it would be highlighted in the section that specifically refers to Torque Values. I suspect the "people who were qualified to answer the question" were miss-reading their own manual.

The MOC forums are a great place for information and help, no one would dispute that. Through the forums it has been established that there may be the need for some concern that the U bolts on all units may not have been torqued properly. It might be prudent to either check your own or have them checked prior to delivery by the dealer.

In my opinion creating additional stress and concern to those who are completely unfamiliar with the mechanical workings of our Montana's serves no purpose and should be avoided. This is an instance of adding a non supported element to a relatively simple job of checking your U bolts and torquing them to something within the min/max range.

The min/max torque range is 45 to 70 lbs, that is a difference of a whopping 25 lbs. I would suggest the "NOT" correct would surely fit in that range and I for one will not be worrying about it.

I would say to Dexter, show me the reasoning and the numbers because I am from "Missouri".

I am having both my axles replaced under warranty, I am sure the U bolts will be torqued to the proper value when the axles are installed and the wheels are actually off the axles. Since I am going to be very much involved in this process I will do the research for all on the MOC as well as Dexter and check the torque after assembly, and once again when it is sitting with the wheels on and sitting solidly on the ground.
I will use my own torque wrench in both instances, so that will not be a factor.

To be continued:
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:12 AM   #29
Art-n-Marge
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Simple physics?! The only physics class I've had was in High School and I don't recall any discussion on torquing bolts, so a condescending suggestion like this isn't going to cut it.

I have had enough science and research that reasoning, facts and proof are much better than comments. Now that I've possibly ruined my U-bolts by not following the recommended procedure, now what? My simple physics tells me there is a possibility that if I overtorqued the nuts by not taking the extra (long) time just to raise my trailer properly to do this, then I'd like to know what the result will be? Have I ruined my U-bolts?

This sounds like the similar problem when torquing wheel nuts and the weight of the vehicle or trailer is also ON these same wheels, which is why after driving some miles rechecking is required. But my simple physics thinking has always been that the torque will be okay, because the rubber tires provide the give to properly torque the wheel to the axle. I don't know enough physics to apply this to a trailer.

However, I personally did some axle work on the rear end of my truck requiring removal and replacement of the U-bolts. In that case the rear end was elevated when I torqued the nuts down. BUT, then to recheck a few days later after driving a few miles, I rechecked them but did not elevate the rear end because I didn't know about this phenomenon, nor had ever read about it. Have I ruined my truck U-bolts, too? IIRC, they were okay. Or is this difference not enough to worry about it.

Richfaa, thanks for bringing up another "think about it" for do-it-yourselfers in rig ownership. This has been a revelation that I never realized and important enough to figure out for one's self. I guess I don't own enough service manuals for everything I want to do in my life and should get a few. The things you learn (and I like to learn stuff like this). Please keep us posted.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:14 AM   #30
Irlpguy
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Jib27537 I think you have things a bit backward there. With the springs on the top of the axle you only need the U bolts to hold them in place, they do "NOT" support any weight, on the other hand if the springs are underslung then they would most certainly be weight bearing.

I don't think they are covering their asses I just think as I have suggested they are not even reading their own manual correctly. If they were covering their asses they would be specific about how to do it in the Torque Value section.

Rich you can take my message to the Fall Rally and directly to Dexter because this is just plain sillyness, there will be no 25 lb difference.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:54 AM   #31
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Now don't get out of hand...Dexter DID NOT say there would be a 25lb difference someone on the forum did ..lets keep it straight. The springs are on top of the axles not under slung perhaps that is where the miss communication is. Again..I don't know. I asked the question and got the answer. perhaps someone here is better qualified to ask the question. I personally right now do not know what to so about the Nut torque so I will leave them as they came from
Dexter. The Dexter number is 574-534-1784 and the name is Glenn.

Lesson learned for the future. I will no longer post such silliness on the forum. It will be my question, my answer and I will decide what to do with it.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:01 AM   #32
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Trusting the factory to get all the nuts torqued within spec has not worked out well for some folks. However, at the same time I also realize nuts torqued to specs at production do not stay that way after a few thousand miles....
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:26 AM   #33
Irlpguy
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Rich the range of torque values span 25 lbs, I am only saying there is no way that kind of difference would be seen. That to me is just common sense.

Everyone's opinions and posts are of value on these forums, I am not being critical of your post, only the information that has not in any way been supported by either the folks at Dexter or their own manual. That to me is very important to the impression some folks will believe is the proper way to torque the U bolts.

The "sillyness" is in not getting proper information from Dexter, which causes nothing but confusion.

dsprick if what you say were true then would it not follow that our TV would require the U bolts to be re-torgued as well.

One would assume that if the torque value of our Montana's U bolts which fall within the range Dexter give as min/max, they are safe and appropriate, in spite of the large range in values. This is a question I would ask Dexter, along with a confirmation of the difference you would see if you did it one way as opposed to the other. I do not believe anyone at Dexter knows that value, but may be prepared to perform this experiment at the rally, for me I will perform the test myself.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:58 AM   #34
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I apparently did not have the expertise to ask the proper question or to understand the answer. Example over slung or under slung springs. I had and have no clue. There are a couple here who apparently have the expertise to ask the question and understand the answer. When I was being told the answer I did not have the expertise or knowledge to challenge or further question. I would really like to know the correct answer. I am sure Dexter knows their product. The problem may have been in the knowledge base of the questioner. Perhaps those with the knowledge can ask the proper question.

The bolts on the rear axle drivers side of our 06 3400 came loose moved the spring forward sheared the guide pin off and everything slid forward. The quick thinking of a 18 wheeler driver who literally forced me off the road saved the day. It was a easy fix for the dealer and paid for by my extended warranty. Mor Ryde cut off the suspension system before that fall rally and installed the IS system.

It was my fault as I did not check the torque which is way I am so aware of the torque issue. Montana did make a change later in the nut type.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:05 AM   #35
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Richfaa, I disagree that you should not post your questions or encounters in the future. That goes against the "no such thing as a dumb question" philosophy. In my responses I tried not to be harsh with my answers, it's just that when you contact the experts and they are inconsistent, this is where the silliness lies.

A point of this post is to torque these nuts with the rig RAISED from now on to the values stated by others who are passing on what they read or were told from other reliable sources. The second point is that we use this information to the best within our environments that keep us informed, safe and learning. Sure it seems silly sometimes, but we can use whatever adjective that works for us, I prefer cautious or confused.

No one should take offense. When I towed trailers for a living, I found things that the factory should have done, but didn't ALL the time. There was even one manufacturer who mandated that us transporters were no longer allowed to check wheel torque AT the factory as I prepared to tow a trailer away; I got the impression they didn't want us transporters checking their work on a newly put together rig in front of their personnel. Knowing better, I would then tow a few blocks down the road and before getting on the Interstate to start a delivery, would then check the torque and guess what?! The torque was off for many of nuts on the wheels!!! I agree with dsprik, there are plenty of other places where things need a recheck, like u-bolts.

Irlp guy, fortunately I would think our TVs are put together far better than recreational RVs and would therefore not require as much rechecking. Sure things fail, but they are much more rare regarding suspensions. The quality and manufacturing procedures are so much better for passenger vehicles than the RV industry in that area. RVs have the same problems too many times to be regarded as manufactured with the highest quality and much of this is blamed back on owner neglect by the RV industry (huh?). Everyone else pays for insurance and warranties. I just wished we didn't have to use them.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:28 AM   #36
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Richfaa I think you did your part on getting information from the horses mouth. Can't do much more than that. Every one will have their own ideas and I will give you mine. I think Dexter wants at least 45 lbs to prevent any movement between axel and springs but no more than 70 lbs to prevent u-bolt over stretch.
As for the wheels being off the ground or not, every one with any maintenance knowledge will have their own thoughts.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:22 AM   #37
richfaa
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Glenn is the guy who gives the seminars at the Fall rally and in my original post I stated that I had NOT heard him say the wheels must be off the ground when setting the torq ue.I had made notes in the Dexter maint manual and I would have certainly made that note. It was confirmed by others who were also there that he had not said that. That was actually the. reason for the post. Just a aside. I had to change out a tire on the way to Florida this year and when we had the original repaired in Florida and put it back on the Montana my self and another MOC member set the torque at 60lbs on that wheel because it was easy to do it with the wheel off and the weight was off the axle at the time, Not planned just was.. I checked the torque just this afternoon with the Montana in the driveway with the wheel on the ground and with the same torque tool. I did not note a significant difference.??????
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:45 AM   #38
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I am the new guy on the block so to speak here on the MOC forums and it is always apparent that when my opinion or my questioning of comments is put up against long time members then I am usually going to be deemed incorrect,I do not care about that, and you may use my "real" name if you choose to call me out on something, that does not bother me either.

What really bothers me is when unsubstantiated recommendations or "must do" methods are posted that cause unnecessary concern for the members here.

Go back to the beginning of this conversation. Rich claimed that no less than two other people at Dexter confirmed what Glen had said and that was to raise the unit off the ground to torque the U bolts. A reference was used to something completely unrelated to checking the torque on your U bolts to substantiate that statement. Due to this post there were several posts showing concern that folks had actually not torqued their bolts properly because they did not raise the wheels = Unwarranted concern was created by quoting the source at Dexter, unwarranted because they were unable to say what the difference would be.

Dexter assemble the axles and spring assemblies, they do not mount them on the frames, that means the U bolts are torqued likely without even having wheels mounted on them. If Glen and the other sources at Dexter had explained that to you Rich, with the caveat that they do not check them when the RV is completed and sitting ready to go then he likely would have made a true statement.
If he had instead said "it is our experience that when we compare our torqued values to those taken by Keystone when the unit is complete we have found a difference" then again he would have said something of possible value.

No such things seem to have been said to Rich and it is not his fault he may not have asked what I or someone else might have asked. The damn fault lies with the unsubstantiated comments made by this so called "person in the know" at Dexter.

If this is of any concern whatsoever then have this genius at Dexter confirm it in writing and put out a bulletin to that effect, or at the very least include an update in their literature. I would be holding his foot to the fire you can bet on that.

I am sure Rich you would need a very accurate tool to determine any difference in the torque, even my $189.00 wrench would be hard pressed to measure anything more or less than 5 lbs.

I hope this subject will be officially put to bed with a posting that gives some facts, otherwise post that it is of little or no consequence and that it is not something to be concerned with.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:19 AM   #39
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I should have known better....Must be getting old. Never again.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:13 PM   #40
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Rich I am not sure what to make of your last post, it would seem you are taking my comments way too personal, they are not at all intended to be personal, and will only be so if you choose to see it that way.

I have a call in to my Service/Warranty Administrator who approved the warranty on my axles. On one occasion when I spoke to him, I also spoke with an engineer, and will ask to do so again when my call is returned. (time difference involved).

As with the Government it is hard to get someone to put their statements in writing, I will seek to do that but make no promise.

It is most definitely Happy Hour back East and I am proclaiming that it is here as well, because polishing a 39+ ft Montana is a lot of work and I deserve a Corona. Wish you could join me Rich, we could talk fishing or anything other than Keystone products.
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