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Old 12-05-2011, 12:40 PM   #41
helmick
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Montana Owners Club's Mission Statement

The Montana Owners Club Mission shall be to:

"To Provide Montana RV enthusiasts a calm and inviting atmosphere to exchange
valuable information, and enhance their general RV-ing experience."

The Montana RV Club is a club organized for the enjoyment of all owners of
Montana, Montana Big Sky 5th Wheels, Montana Mountaineer RVs or
any person who is planning on buying a Montana in their future.
If you own either brand (any model) you can add to the
enjoyment of your RV lifestyle and leisure time
by joining the Montana Owners Club.


We stand behind the administrators and moderators .The forum has been provided by a private individual(s).It is a valuable resource to me. It is free.I try to abide by their rules.If the time comes that I can not I will be gone. There are plenty of Rv forums out there.

Thank you Rich, very well said.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:22 PM   #42
boylanag
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Yes, thanks Rich. Well said!
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:31 PM   #43
sreigle
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Well stated, Rich.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:19 PM   #44
gr8330
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by HomeOnTheRoad

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by patbarton

Vickie, if all readers can see is THIS thread, then we're really not certain what the point IS without moderator comment on the earlier thread!

The problem is that, without input by the moderators, we really DON'T know exactly why the thread was closed. And I for one resent the implication from (mostly) older members that we are invited to part company with the forum if we don't agree on the way it is being operated. We are all RVers with a common interest that holds us together, one which do so with a pretty strong bond; other than that, we are all different people with different views on many subjects. There should be room for disagreement here. In my lurking days here I've seen a good degree of intolerance on the part of admins about different things. One in particular was a post by an established member who suggested the MOC logo-d merchandise could be updated. That post was shut down very rudely (my opinion) by an admin. I thought that could have been handled much more politely.

In this case, there was no input from forum administration as to why the thread was closed. The OP claims no one contacted him about it, and I think that should ALWAYS happen. If admins moderate without explanation, then we as members are not really sure what is expected of us. I know (and I think we all do) that name-calling and nastiness are not allowed. And I think the more astute of us have an opinion of why the thread was closed, but we do NOT know what happened unless notified by the moderator(s) that closed the thread.

After a while, repeated statements that "the admins are doing a great job here and if you don't like it go start your own forum" get pretty tiresome. For the most part I think this forum is well-moderated. But how much of that is based on the good manners almost universally exhibited by the members in less controversial posts?
Let me see if I can make this clear. I am quoting the above because I want to address some of the comments. But I am not pointing my reply only to this poster. I am trying to clarify to all.

1. This is a privately owned forum monitored by the Administrators and Moderators who are charged with following the instructions of the owner and keeping the forum true to the Mission Statement as best we can.

2. There is no requirement that we notify anyone about any of our actions for any reason. However, we do frequently communicate with the offender to make sure they understand our action. Sometimes we have even reversed the action. There are exceptions where we do not or can not contact the offender.

3. We try to keep our communications about offensive posts behind the scenes. It is not our goal to embarrass the individual by posting a public tongue lashing.

4. We do value your input and we frequently discuss those issues among ourselves. However, we will NOT violate the mission statement or the wishes of the owner. When a violation occurs is purely a subjective decision. Sometimes we are wrong and when that happens we own up to it and try to correct it. When we feel we are correct, then the decision stands regardless of how others feel. That is the job we are charged with doing and we will do it.

5. The Administrator who eliminated the other thread did contact the originator and even apologized for how it was handled. I personally do not think he had to do that but he chose to do so. That was made clear in an earlier post in this thread.

6. Sometimes we just delete a single offending post instead of the whole thread. That has created problems, too. If we just delete the single post, then that poster is ticked off and we have these same discussions we're seeing now. If we don't delete the post but just delete its contents and replace it with a comment that the post was offensive and deleted, then that embarrasses the poster because his name is still over there on the left. We have to make a decision on the fly.

7. I will reiterate what another poster said earlier because it was stated succintly and it is fact. This is a privately owned and run forum. Anyone who does not like it is not required to stay here. If you don't like how it is run, leave. It is as simple as that.
Wow right to the point! You sound irritated but you are correct we can leave if we don't like it and we can also not contribute money if we don't like it. Rich I have to agree with you also.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:23 PM   #45
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People used to dress up and go to town on Saturday morning and there on main street they met their friends and had discussions about all kinds of subjects. As a country we have lost that. We as a people are poorer for that. We go to the stinking mall now. Every body is in a hurry. We need a place we can discuss topics of national interest, in a calm and civilized manner. We have made a lot of friends here. This would be an excellent place to have the type of discussion that took place on main street a long time ago. We wouldn't all agree but that is wonderful. If we all agreed it would just prove nobody was thinking.
I know this isn't my forum and I use it at the person that owns it's leisure. I am truly grateful that I can use it, but a place to talk about all kinds of topics, I think. would be good for us and our country.
Just my thoughts.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:31 PM   #46
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As a forum supporter whose life on the road has truly been enriched because of this forum, by way of knowledge, safety, and new friends, thanks Rich!
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:56 PM   #47
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I sure have enjoyed reading this clear exercise of our first amendment rights, and am espically thankful for the 2nd amendment also. Wow, this is a good forum. Merry Christmas.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:15 PM   #48
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I truly hope that what I am about to say doesn't get me rejected as I truly enjoy this forum. When I arrived home from Vietnam I was one of the soldiers who was spit on by a protestor; if he is still alive, he has not forgotten the result of his action. If he had kept it to remarks, there would have been no result. I would go to war again for his right to his opinion. I didn't want to go to war and more especially didn't want to kill anyone, but both of those things became a real part of my life as my "friends and neighbors" the letter said, had selected me to serve. So, as my older brother, my father, my grandfather, and my great grandfather had done, I went to war. IMHO if it is to remain a forum, it must allow all points of view, it is the real American way. When either opinion is struck down by an absolute Monarchy, the word forum no longer applies. I consider myself to be a "sheepdog" as I was willing to kill the wolves that you selected me to kill, but when one of you chose to spit on me, quite naturally I bared my teeth. IMHO, I know and like very much, the person who had the user name "Sheepdog". I know for sure that he has spent alot of life standing guard for the innocent. I find him to be a kind and gentle man. Maybe he didn't speak as eloquently as some, yet his opinion is no less valid. Some of you, like the "spitter", are just not willing to tolerate his presence. I stand by him and believe you should have spoken to him privately, and you would have been received courteously. IMHO, Larry, Merry Christmas
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:34 PM   #49
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Excellent point Larry. Some of us don't always say things in the best possible way, but that doesn't make us bad people.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:27 AM   #50
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Old 12-06-2011, 03:30 AM   #51
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Hook you said it very good. I know I can not talk that good. I think though that maybe something happened with SheepDog that we do not see or know about. I know one time I got a talking to from one of the form leeders that I said something I should not say. I was nice back to them and have been a good boy ever since. I am not sure my wife agrees though. I wonder if Sheepdog wasn't so nice when he got talked to. I will never no. I learnd a lot here and want to learn more so I will be a good boy.
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Old 12-06-2011, 03:54 AM   #52
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We belong to a couple of other forums that are not Rv related. We belong to a gun forum and even that forum has rules on what can and not be said.

There are forums that are devoted to just about any subject but they all have rules.

This forum is devoted primarily to our common interest in Montana RV's just as other forums may be political or religon oriented.
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:33 AM   #53
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by rvghostdriver

Hook you said it very good. I know I can not talk that good. I think though that maybe something happened with SheepDog that we do not see or know about. I know one time I got a talking to from one of the form leeders that I said something I should not say. I was nice back to them and have been a good boy ever since. I am not sure my wife agrees though. I wonder if Sheepdog wasn't so nice when he got talked to. I will never no. I learnd a lot here and want to learn more so I will be a good boy.
As of about one hour ago, there had been no contact with him. Larry
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Old 12-06-2011, 07:26 AM   #54
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I see that this is still a subject of some interest to most so I will at the risk of scrutiny raise a point about this . A couple years ago I posted about people coming from the northern part of the country to the Desert Southwest .I wont get into the details but it was about the Safety of crossing the border and the vulnerability we face in doing so, no racist comments, no bashing , just real facts from myself ( someone who lives close to the border and who is more familiar with Mexico than most). The thread was closed , and I was sent a PM explaining why , this time the subjects was guns, once again no bashing by me, no political, religious , or racist comments and yet again shut down, I did get an explanation the next day by the admin and an apology ( which I appreciated ). I wasn't reprimanded or warned about the subject and I don't feel as though the MOC owed me an apology, but it was a nice gesture.

To those that have posted that this subject matter doesn't belong on an RV forum, and that say there are other forums these subjects should be used for you are WRONG.Yes there are other forums , but in the context I was using them they certainly apply to the RV lifestyle I can completely understand that if it is something that doesn't interest you then fine don't read it or watch it...change the channel .

There are many subjects that on see on this very forum that I have absolutely no interest in nor do they have anything to do with RVing , so I just skip past them. I don't petition the moderators to close them.So the argument that it doesn't relate to RVs doesn't have any merit.

I like many of you come to this forum and forums like this to learn about the RVs we own the lifestyle , problem solving , and issues we share while out on the road.Sometimes it is just an escape from everyday things and after I read a little bit I feel better about whatever may have been bothering me.Coming to the forum to read about RV stuff and seeing issues like medical problems people are having , folks and pets passing away are the types of things that have Nothing to do with RVing ,yet I can see where some people may want read about them.

I have brought all this up because the 2 subjects that I have been shut down for has reared its ugly head to a fellow RVer. If any of you are RV blog followers you have no doubt heard of Tioga George. He is currently in Hermosillo Mexico and last night caught an intruder INSIDE his motor home while he was asleep, he was able to run him off but this could have gone the other way in an instant. Yes this could have happened here in the states as well, but it didn't , however the need for protection was the same no matter where it happened.

I hope that some of you will read this and realize that just because you may not feel the same way about a subject it doesn't mean that it should be closed ..Hope everyone enjoys there day...Scott
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:12 AM   #55
CamillaMichael
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by HomeOnTheRoad

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by patbarton

Vickie, if all readers can see is THIS thread, then we're really not certain what the point IS without moderator comment on the earlier thread!

The problem is that, without input by the moderators, we really DON'T know exactly why the thread was closed. And I for one resent the implication from (mostly) older members that we are invited to part company with the forum if we don't agree on the way it is being operated. We are all RVers with a common interest that holds us together, one which do so with a pretty strong bond; other than that, we are all different people with different views on many subjects. There should be room for disagreement here. In my lurking days here I've seen a good degree of intolerance on the part of admins about different things. One in particular was a post by an established member who suggested the MOC logo-d merchandise could be updated. That post was shut down very rudely (my opinion) by an admin. I thought that could have been handled much more politely.

In this case, there was no input from forum administration as to why the thread was closed. The OP claims no one contacted him about it, and I think that should ALWAYS happen. If admins moderate without explanation, then we as members are not really sure what is expected of us. I know (and I think we all do) that name-calling and nastiness are not allowed. And I think the more astute of us have an opinion of why the thread was closed, but we do NOT know what happened unless notified by the moderator(s) that closed the thread.

After a while, repeated statements that "the admins are doing a great job here and if you don't like it go start your own forum" get pretty tiresome. For the most part I think this forum is well-moderated. But how much of that is based on the good manners almost universally exhibited by the members in less controversial posts?
Let me see if I can make this clear. I am quoting the above because I want to address some of the comments. But I am not pointing my reply only to this poster. I am trying to clarify to all.

1. This is a privately owned forum monitored by the Administrators and Moderators who are charged with following the instructions of the owner and keeping the forum true to the Mission Statement as best we can.

2. There is no requirement that we notify anyone about any of our actions for any reason. However, we do frequently communicate with the offender to make sure they understand our action. Sometimes we have even reversed the action. There are exceptions where we do not or can not contact the offender.

3. We try to keep our communications about offensive posts behind the scenes. It is not our goal to embarrass the individual by posting a public tongue lashing.

4. We do value your input and we frequently discuss those issues among ourselves. However, we will NOT violate the mission statement or the wishes of the owner. When a violation occurs is purely a subjective decision. Sometimes we are wrong and when that happens we own up to it and try to correct it. When we feel we are correct, then the decision stands regardless of how others feel. That is the job we are charged with doing and we will do it.

5. The Administrator who eliminated the other thread did contact the originator and even apologized for how it was handled. I personally do not think he had to do that but he chose to do so. That was made clear in an earlier post in this thread.

6. Sometimes we just delete a single offending post instead of the whole thread. That has created problems, too. If we just delete the single post, then that poster is ticked off and we have these same discussions we're seeing now. If we don't delete the post but just delete its contents and replace it with a comment that the post was offensive and deleted, then that embarrasses the poster because his name is still over there on the left. We have to make a decision on the fly.

7. I will reiterate what another poster said earlier because it was stated succintly and it is fact. This is a privately owned and run forum. Anyone who does not like it is not required to stay here. If you don't like how it is run, leave. It is as simple as that.
Your way or the highway...fine! I am out of here.
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:16 AM   #56
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I have seen many things on the Forum that was not RV related. I guess that if you run the forum you get to pick and choose what gets to stay.
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:19 AM   #57
Bill-N-Donna
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Shooterdad, you have a good point! I also follow Tiago George’s travels most of the time. He has certainly been through a lot over the past year. The incident he was involved with the other night could have turned out a lot different than it did.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:35 AM   #58
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by The Old Fogies

I have seen many things on the Forum that was not RV related. I guess that if you run the forum you get to pick and choose what gets to stay.
Agreed!

Perhaps one really needs to understand that sooner or later things may come down to ownership and when that happens we need to respect the rights of the owner.

We do not own this forum, nor as I understand does Keystone and therefore we are all guests here. True, it is the guests here that really drive this forum to what it is today but in the end someone else may dictate from time to time.
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:56 AM   #59
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Very well put shooterdad I agree thanks for putting it so well.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:08 AM   #60
richfaa
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7. I will reiterate what another poster said earlier because it was stated succintly and it is fact. This is a privately owned and run forum. Anyone who does not like it is not required to stay here. If you don't like how it is run, leave. It is as simple as that.


"Agreed!

Perhaps one really needs to understand that sooner or later things may come down to ownership and when that happens we need to respect the rights of the owner.

We do not own this forum, nor as I understand does Keystone and therefore we are all guests here. True, it is the guests here that really drive this forum to what it is today but in the end someone else may dictate from time to time."

two statements of cold hard facts. It is difficult for some folks to understand that or adhere to it. It is really no different than not allowing guest to smoke in your house or not serving alcohol in your home. My home my rules one can choose to come in or not or leave.
We are guest here and we will abide by the wishes set by the forum owner.. Their house ,their rules. Not saying I agree or not.It is my choice to stay and abide by the rules...

It is clear that no one will bend on the issue and this horse had been beat enough. We are out of this one.
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