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Old 08-20-2010, 12:30 PM   #41
stevemc
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I guess that is what adds to my frustration. I am a retired quality engineer with 15 years of manufacturing experience. It's not that hard to manage a simple quality program and will pay for itself in the end. But you've got to be willing to investigate and proactively resolve problems when they are discovered or reported. The fastest way to make a managable problem grow into a firestorm is to ignore it as they have done with this one.
 
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Old 08-20-2010, 03:59 PM   #42
richfaa
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Steve with a background in quality control you would choke if you toured ANY rv manufacturing plant. We did some work in that area even attended UCLA, Institute of Industrial relations, Center for Quality of work life to learn the process. The first time we toured a RV plant at about the third workstation I asked our tour guide "how do the workmen at this work station know they have successfully completed all the tasks assigned to them' he looked at me like I had three heads.
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:22 PM   #43
racerjoe
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Can a poll be put on the MOC site to see how many have had problems? We could put the year,model and if they are peeling or not.
Then someone could present this info to Keystone at the fall rally.
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Old 08-21-2010, 04:18 AM   #44
LonnieB
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Quote:
quote:By racerjoe

Can a poll be put on the MOC site to see how many have had problems? We could put the year,model and if they are peeling or not.
Then someone could present this info to Keystone at the fall rally.
Yes, a poll can be put on the site but I think an administrator has to do it. Maybe someone can PM an administrator?



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Old 08-21-2010, 04:23 AM   #45
richfaa
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The problem WILL be presented at the fall rally. All of the concerned parties will be there.
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Old 08-21-2010, 08:14 AM   #46
tspoon
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I'm not buying another Montana till the graphics problem is fixed.
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Old 08-21-2010, 08:46 AM   #47
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Presenting at the Fall rally is okay but a lot of us will not be there. So it will be like so many other "fixes" (closet door catch, bolts, etc.), those that are there will get fixed and the rest of us will be out of luck. JMHO
Happy trails...........
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Old 08-21-2010, 09:06 AM   #48
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You are right. This needs to be handled similar to an automotive recall. I know it goes back to at least 2005. It's not a problem that is hard to identify as it is easy to see on affected units. Only thing is there are some like me who have already taken the worst ones off of our trailer. I would be glad to put new ones on myself if they would just provide me with new graphics that are gauranteed to be better quality than the originals. The "Montana" name on front seems to be the worst on most units but I've already had to take it off of one side as well. Our mountains are also starting to peel on front and back but just not bad enough for me to remove yet. The proper fix is a full set of replacement graphics.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:44 AM   #49
racerjoe
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Maybe whoever gets to present this to the Keystone/Burlington people can maybe try to get a concrete answer as to what their plan of attack is. A small amount of the total problem will be at the rally so they need to step up with a good answer. Hopefully they won't give you a lot of "political speak" that in the end says nothing.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:54 AM   #50
richfaa
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Not to defend Keystone or Montana BUT if you will look any other forums such as Rv net or a owner forum of any brand you will note that the graphic problem is wide spread. To say that one will not buy another Montana until the graphic problem is corrected is like saying I will not buy another RV till they stop putting Chinese tires on them.

The results of the "experience" with Burlingtone and Montana will be well reported on the forum.

The issues presented to keystone /Montana and the vendors at the Fall Rally are taken from the issues on this forum and are representative of a cross section of Montana owners. Issues like the wet bolt issue that was presented at the fall rally resulted in the change being made on the new units. There have been many issues presented to keystone at the fall rally that have been incorporated into the production models.

I will admit that there is a advantage of being at the fall rally where all the vendors as well as keystone/Montana are present. The service center is there, the factory is there, all the factories are there. The vendors are there as well as most of their plants. The surplus warehouses are there. Scores of repair facilities are there. I have a list of "stuff" I need every year. We will spend some time at the MOR Ryde plant to have our IS system checked over and we had it installed there at the last fall rally. You are in the center of the RV industry and everything you might need is at your finger tips. It is a unique experience and we are fortunate that we live just a few hours away and we have been to every fall rally since we purchased our 06 3400.

Although most of the MOC members can not be there due to distance alone your concerns are presented because they are the concerns of the MOC'ers that are there.
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Old 08-22-2010, 06:12 AM   #51
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We live in the Northwest and winter in the Southwest and will likely not have the time or chance to attend a Rally near the Factory. When we took delivery of our New Montana the graphics were cracked similar to spider webs on the right side of the unit only. No problem; Dealer would replace; had this done and we are back to square one of less than a year with peeling, web cracks etc. Dealer would do it again but I am simply tired of spending time running to the Dealer to put another poor quality product on just to advertise the Montana name!!
I have personnaly applied hundreds of 3M decals on Ag tractors as a collector and restorer where some are now 12 years old and have not had problems with peeling, fade, or cracking. The atmosphere that these tractors live in are extreme compared to the Monty. Again looking at the quality of those graphics on the Monty I noticed that on the edges, when they come lose are very brittle. Until the RV world has to meet the parameters that our automotive industry meets, we will continue these discussions of disgust with product. And yes I know, to have quality, the cosumer price will rise, but my pride has been going down hill with the many problems of today's RV products. We love the plan, the size, etc, but I will gurantee we will be looking closely at other manufactures products for our next purchase.
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Old 08-22-2010, 06:17 AM   #52
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When Louise retired we went out for 6 weeks. The cg host at Scott county cg in Iowa had a fifth wheel without graphics. It looke like a 3400 so we asked him if it was and why no graphics. Due to the problems he had with his previous Montana he removed all graphics. When he ordered his new one it was ordered w/o graphics so he would not go through the same problem.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:12 AM   #53
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Rich, from what I have read on this forum since joining, You seem to be the one that has been "chosen" to represent the group. It is to bad that about two thirds of the Montana owners could not show up to a rally like that. It would kind of put an exclamation point to a problem if Keystone and Burlington would be able to see with their own eyes that this is not an "isolated" problem. It would make the spokesman life much easier with that much evidence. I for one wish you and whoever else will be involved in this discussion the very best. While I think that most Montana owners are part time campers,they all want to see their beautiful units look good and last for a long time. Every one likes to have bragging rights to how good theirs looks.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:29 AM   #54
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"Rich, from what I have read on this forum since joining, You seem to be the one that has been "chosen" to represent the group.

" That could not be further from the truth. I may be representative OF the group but I certainly do not represent THE group. There are 80 plus Montana's signed for the rally and I will bet some of those have now or have had bad graphics.My guess is the Burlington Graphics seminar will be well attended. The highest level of Montana management will also be at the rally on a regular basis and I am sure they will be hearing a lot about the graphics issue.

Now my big issue is..... leaking holding tanks. I have both a grey and black tank leaking and have had a black tank replaced before. There are about as many reports of leaking tanks as bad graphics and I am tired of leaking tanks.
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:27 AM   #55
racerjoe
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It was only meant as a compliment. You seem to speak your mind and have a very good way of doing it. I am glad for that.
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:40 AM   #56
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I understood what you meant racerjoe. But some folks take things literally. Thanks ..
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:15 AM   #57
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quote:Originally posted by c214dick

When Louise retired we went out for 6 weeks. The cg host at Scott county cg in Iowa had a fifth wheel without graphics. It looke like a 3400 so we asked him if it was and why no graphics. Due to the problems he had with his previous Montana he removed all graphics. When he ordered his new one it was ordered w/o graphics so he would not go through the same problem.
Bet those people had two little dogs and a white Ford dually too.
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Old 08-22-2010, 01:04 PM   #58
c214dick
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Little dogs yes but don't remember the truck. It sounds like you know who I'm referring to. Anyway, I just washed Monty, yikes, I forgot how long it took. All decals, with the exception of the front are in good shape with the exception of where I scratched it. The front is real bad with a lot of tattered edges. So is it really due to defects or where it is applied, at least in my case.
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:41 AM   #59
stevemc
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quote:Originally posted by richfaa

To say that one will not buy another Montana until the graphic problem is corrected is like saying I will not buy another RV till they stop putting Chinese tires on them.
I understand your point but only speaking for myself I won't consider a new Montana because of their lack of response. I can accept that mistakes are made but not the posture that Keystone has taken that this is an issue too small and not important enough to warrant their concern. It shouldn't take 6 years to get their attention. I agree we shouldn't have to replace the tires on a new unit either but at least I can buy better quality tires, at this point I can't get better quality graphics that match the originals. Maybe all RV manufacturers are equivalent in the materials and manufacturing practices they use but there are companies with a better management attitude.
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:13 AM   #60
SlickWillie
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I looked around in our park; three Montana's, all three with at least some peeling decals. Got me to thinking about the other units they build. Not near as many out there, but are the decals on them bad too? Like Everest, Challenger, etc?
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