Questions-5th Airborne Sidewinder

[sreigle]

I'm thinking of buying the 5th Airborne Sidewinder. Just the sidewinder that moves the pivot point to under the fifthwheel, not the air hitch.

The sidewinder has two blocks that lock the pinbox into the truck's hitch so that it does not pivot. The other end, the end where it connects to the Montana, then pivots, moving the pivot point aft by 20 inches. That allows full 90 degree (and more) turns without fear of colliding cab to FW.

For those of you with experience with this pinbox....

1. Should the FW have to be towed by a different truck, how do you do that? The blocks mentioned above are configured for a particular hitch. They are adjustable but have only a few positions and fit only certain hitches. So is there a special plate to be used when the FW needs to be towed by a different hitch? If not, how does one get the FW towed?

2. Are there any unusual or different on-the-road performance characteristics of this pinbox? For example, does the FW handle sidewinds any differently? Any more tendency to sway?

Another advertised advantaged is the new pivot point allows the fw to track closer to the truck's tack, similar to a travel trailer. This supposedly helps reduce the need for wide turns (fewer curbs hit) and also makes it easier backing into a site, closer to a travel trailer. Anyone experience this? Good? Bad?

For those just wondering, the sidewinder, without the air pinbox, retails for something less than $900 (plus installation). If you get the sidewinder with the 5th airborne air pinbox, then it's $15xx and installation. This is from what I saw at a dealer's yesterday.

I did not buy because the dealer has to order it and we leave here tomorrow.

Thanks.

Thanks.

[TLightning]

I'd call 5th Abn, they are very helpfull...866-352-7340.

[bsmeaton]

Just the design of that thing gives me the creeps. All those folks with busted front frames - the effort that went into correcting that at the factory, and now this. brrrrrr

[BB_TX]

I don't own one, so I probably shouldn't comment. But then when did that ever stop us.
But I also wonder about the design. With a conventional hitch, all the pin weight is a purely verticle downward force to the center of the hitch. With the Sidewinder and the pivot point moved back 20", it would seem it would now be putting that downward force behind the hitch (creating a torque force with 20" leverage) unless the Sidewinder pivot mechanism is so stiff that it still transfers all that verticle down force to the center of the king pin. ???
But I have not heard of anyone who actually has one have a complaint about it or problem with it.

[bsmeaton]

I honestly think we haven't heard of problems yet because it has only been out a few months. But that is just guessing.

In addition to the stress you describe Bill, when that turrent is 90 degress to the side, it's displacing all of the centerline pin weight off to one side of the rig putting tremendous stress on those center frame welds above the pin box. I don't think Lippert counted on that.

[rogue]

Steve, I'll answer your questions based upon my experience with the 5th airborne sidewinder that has the air bag and shock.
1) Towing the FW with another truck --- This could be a problem, as there is a block that fits into the hitch, so if the hitch is different it could be a problem. The same block can be turned around or adjusted (by 2 big bolts)so it could fit a number of different hitches. SO the problem is lessened but could still be a problem. The block could be removed and any hitch would then work, however there would be 2 pivot points, and backing would be impossible, not to mention possible safty(2 pivot points) issues. BUT consider how many times do you need to be towed by another truck?

2)This is my first FW, prior I had a Class C Minnie Winnie. Comparing the 2, the FW is much more stable when a truck passes, and in winds from any direction. I have noticed no wind turbulence with the FW by trucks, and very little from strong cross winds (20-30MPH).

Your other questions, I have not had any problems backing the FW other than the difference in pivot point, but no big deal here. I have a 200 foot drive I have to back into with both right and left turns, no problems.
As for the FW tracking closer to the TV, I think this is true.

Yes you can do 90 degrees with out any problems.

My personal position, having Air Bags on the TV, and Morryde suspension on the FW, I still see the shock and air bag working in my rear view mirror. See the FW gently rocking but much less feeling in the TV. I'd opt for the full system, not just the sidewinder part. But that's your call.

Any other questions I'm happy to respond.

[sreigle]

Great info, Bob and everyone else, too. Bob, do I understand you have the sidewinder I described on your 5th Airbone pinbox?

Thanks, Tom, for the phone number. I think I'll give them a call when we settle in to our next destination and ask both my questions and those posed by you folks in this thread. The stress issue is certainly one to consider.

At a dealer in Kansas City I noticed quite a number of Everests with the sidewinder installed. I asked and found out it's a factory option for the Everest. The dealer had nothing to do with it and is not a 5th Airborne dealer. I need to take another closeup look at an installation to see how the stress is applied. When the box is straight on I would think the stress would be the same as the standard pinbox, assuming the same length for the box (and that I'm not sure of). But I'd not thought about the side stresses.

Thanks for all the input. Even at our next destination we'll be about 90 miles from the nearest 5th Airborne dealer so it may be awhile before we make the purchase, if we make the purchase.

I have a little dent in the sheetmetal on the cab of the truck, next to the rear window where the Montana kissed it. I was backing into an extremely tight site and had to back over a kinda curb that shifted the truck right into the Montana. Fortunately Vicki was on the balled and yelled for me to stop before it did any damage to the montana other than a slight scrape mark on the lower corner. I was very fortunate and it's time to seriously consider a hitch I don't have to manually shift. Obviously I did not use the slider.

[bsmeaton]

That is real interesting about the Everest. I assume the Everest and Montana are like sisters in design, at least from what I see. They sell tons of those out here. In fact I see more of those than Montana.

[rogue]

Steve, here is the web site
http://www.fifthairborne.com/

There are 3 units there;
5th Airborne (a standard pin set with air bag and shock, no change to pivot point)

5th Airborne Sidewinder (has air bag and shock from above and change of pivot point of the below)

Sidewider (no air bag nor shock, just change of pivot point)

I have the middle one (5th Airborne Sidewinder).

[c5racer]

Some guy on another forum asked B&W about using the extended and this is their reply.
Recently, we became aware of a product that is of special concern. This product replaces the pin box on a 5th wheel trailer and changes the pivot point from the hitch jaws to a point rearward of the hitch. It is our opinion that this configuration creates stress loads that fall outside the normal testing done on 5th wheel hitches. We are concerned that moving the pivot point rearward as much as 20 inches puts stress on the hitch (and the truck) that has not been widely studied. Therefore, we strongly discourage the use of our Companion 5th Wheel Hitch with one of these pin boxes. Any product that prevents the king pin from rotating within the jaws of the Companion with a wedge or other device and moves the center of rotation to a point other than the locking jaws should not be used with the Companion

[bsmeaton]

Also interesting - I never even thought about what it does to the hitch.

[Exnavydiver]

In the last 16 weeks on the road i have talked to every Sidewinder I could find at every CG we have visited. Without fail the responses have been positive. I was able to talk to 9 owners of Sidewinders, 3 on Montanas, 1 Big Sky, 4 Titaniums, and 1 mobile suite. I have asked all these owners because I intend to get the full 5th Airborne Sidewinder setup as soon as the stick house sells. Since that may be awhile I am checking with all the owners I can find for feed back. As for B&W's claims I am not worried simply because they don't seem to have done any testing to back up any of them... Dave and Betsy

[bsmeaton]

I'm not sure you would get any other response from a sidewinder owner. Probably wouldn't from a Yugo owner either. The owners opinion is usually 99.9% bias bull and bragging, just like the rest of us out there.

Time will tell on these, just like it took time for tires to pop, frames to crack, and siding to crack by the bedroom slides. It would be interest to hear what Keystone thinks after doing warranty work on thousands of front frames

[sreigle]

Very interesting replies. I guess I need to talk to someone at Keystone with the knowledge to give me accurate guidance as to whether it's ok with a Montana.

The sidewinder works only with a few hitch brands. I don't recall whether B&W Companion is one of them but will look to see soon as I can. We'll be on the road tomorrow so it will be a couple of days.

[rogue]

Steve, The B&W hitch is one that is supported http://www.fifthairborne.com/fifthside_details.html .

As for it not being supported, I had it ordered, and installed at the Montana dealership, and have the 7 year extended warranty on the Montana. This was all done at the time of purchase.

I have not experienced any negatives so far, and have been using it since June with about 6K miles on it.

[sreigle]

Thanks, Bob.

Another couple of questions, if I may, for any of you with the sidewinder.

1. Can/Do you use a lubeplate with it or is there no need to?

2. Does the sidewinder cause the FW to ride higher or lower than the stock box? In other words, any need to adjust the FW hitch in the truck to maintain the same ride height?

3. How would you handle having the rig towed by someone with a different brand hitch?

Thanks.

[rogue]

Steve, on mine there is a Teflon plate built into the new pivot point, since there is no turning at the hitch, only on or off, no Teflon plate is required there (per my dealer). Nor will one fit because of the block to keep it from pivoting.

Mine seems to ride higher in the front, and my Husky 16k hitch is as low as it will go. The way the dealer installed the pin set and hitch, I have about 9" between the rails of the truck and the FW. I feel the FW rides about 3-4 inches higher in the front than the back (2955RL).

On having someone else tow, I keep a copy of the instructions (which show brand hitch and block) in the seat of our chairs with all my other manuals. This will let me know which hitches could tow and how to set up the block in case of emergency.

[sreigle]

Bob, thanks again. Do you know whether the manual's procedure for "emergencies" would allow it to be towed with any fifthwheel hitch that would tow the rig if it had the standard pinbox? In other words, could a commercial tow truck tow the rig with the sidewinder in place?

I can put these questions to 5th Airborne as soon as I get the chance to call them so don't go spending time looking for the answer. I just wondered if you recall off the top of your head. Thanks.

[rogue]

Steve, The pin itself is standard size, however the block might be a problem, and if you had to remove the block you would have 2 pivot points. As to a actual answer, I don't have one. Your suggestion on calling 5th is the right way to go. I do not recall seeing anything in the material on emergency proceedures, nor any way to lockup the rear pivot point. I'd be interested to know what 5th has to say on that.

By the way, Thanks to you and Vicki for the Big Bend information, we had a great time there and your pictures and notes helped a lot. Thanks

[sreigle]

I emailed 5th Airborne with some questions, this morning. Haven't heard back yet.

I'm not an engineer so am having some trouble visualizing a couple of things. So, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

One is the comment from some forum about stresses put on the hitch and truck by moving the pivot point back 20 inches. I just measured the offset of the pin on the extended pinbox that came on my Montana. It's 20 inches. So there is no more leverage effect with the sidewinder than with the standard extended pinbox. The sidewinder stays locked directly above the center line of the truckbed, even in a turn. So there's no unusual side stresses on the truck and hitch.

I also don't see how there'd be any more stress on the overhang frame on the Montana. All it does is move the pivot point. The leverage (see above) is the same since the lever length is the same. It seems to me even side stresses when a wheel drops in a hole would be the same. The hitch rocking absorbs that to a point, then after that it stresses the hitch, truck, pinbox, and FW. Same as with a standard extended pinbox, right? And the FW's are built to handle what used to be the standard fifthwheel hitch, one that does not rock side to side. Those put even more side stresses on the rig.

I got a reply to my email to a Keystone person. This person is not an executive nor an engineer. He is familiar with the service problems, etc. His comment is they have not tested the sidewinder on the Montana but the third party selling the sidewinder likely has done extensive testing to keep themselves from being liable for damage to fifthwheels. He did not tell me to go ahead nor to not do it. I did not ask about possible impact on warranty, an oversight on my part but I don't think he makes the policy so probably could not answer that question anyhow.

Am I missing anything?

At this point my remaining concerns have to do with towability by someone with a different hitch than mine and whether there is any noticeable negative while towing down the road.

Rogue, do you see any difference when towing down the highway with the sidewinder compared to the standard pinbox? And Vicki thanks you for your nice comment about her postcards/website.