Ford OE brake controller vs a Prodigy

[Dave W]

This past year my disc brakes haven't been worth much. In fact they have never been what I call great ever even with the original 'magnet' brakes. Yes, the discs worked better but not what others have reported with my 8 or 9 setting. Even manual operation was about useless



- I've checked wiring for incorrect sizing and connections - are fine

- The Hydrastar actuator is putting out 1500 - 1600 pounds pressure as bench tested by a home built test rig
- The pads were worn a bit too much for the miles so will be replaced with semi metallic (dam' the dust and squeal potential)
- The rubber lines show no sign of ballooning but will all be replaced

- The system was fully flushed and bled.


What's left but the original Ford ITBC. Have others had problems with this controller? Is one of the Tekonsha Prodigy products a better choice? I'm aware that Tekonsha worked with Ford to develop their integrated controller but they are not the same. Price - who cares as long as the brakes work better but when all said, a replacement Ford requires a reflash while a Tekonsha wont with that Prodigy appearing to be plug and play with a wiring connector to Ford's original connector.

[dieselguy]

I have no experience with this adaptor, but you might look into it or information about it.
https://www.hydrastarusa.com/product...dapter-module/
My Ford truck is older, but my Hydrastar will cause lotsa blue smoke and black skid marks if you set it too high.

[WeBeFulltime]

Do you have the OE controller set on electric/hydraulic mode? Makes a difference!

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by WeBeFulltime

Do you have the OE controller set on electric/hydraulic mode? Makes a difference!

Been set on E over H since the brakes were installed and checked regularly, i.e. before any trip.

[Creeker]

I remember a lot of talk on the Ford Superduty forums about the stock brake controller being weak in the early model 6.7's. Many complained it simply did not put enough voltage back to the trailer brakes.

Our '14 F350 is also weaker than normal. I went from a setting of around 6 on our prior Chevy to 10 on the Ford with the same Camper. Even now with the new camper I have it set at 9. It works very good with smooth braking, I just have to set it to near or at max to get it there.

[jetskier]

I thought I'd need to reduce the setting on my ITBC when I put disc brakes on the trailer. I still have to use 8 or 9 for decent braking. The 2015-16 Fords have an additional setting in the trailer brake settings in the instrument cluster (IC) - "TBC Effort" with Low Med or High options. It changes the initial braking effort which would be nice to have on High for a heavy trailer. I wish there was a way to flash the IC in the older models with the newer firmware to add the option. I'm guessing it would also require swapping out the controller as well. Maybe ForScan?

[Dave W]

Not many 6.7s earlier then my May 2010 build for my 2011 truck. What's disheartening is that my 2006 and previous 5er at about the same weight/size worked just fine with the original magnet electric brakes.


Looks like I need to do a bit more research on the Tekonsha Prodigys - probably don't need a P3 but possibly a P2 for our travel needs.

[WeBeFulltime]

Originally Posted by Dave W

Not many 6.7s earlier then my May 2010 build for my 2011 truck. What's disheartening is that my 2006 and previous 5er at about the same weight/size worked just fine with the original magnet electric brakes.


Looks like I need to do a bit more research on the Tekonsha Prodigys - probably don't need a P3 but possibly a P2 for our travel needs.

I used a P2 on my 2007 Ram 2500 and was very pleased with it but at that time didn't have disc brakes on the Montana.

[Creeker]

My wife often tows our side x side and 4 wheeler on our dual axle utility trailer with her Jeep on our camping trips. I installed the Prodigy P3 the first week of ownership. Its an excellent brake controller and will easily lock the brakes up when adjusted too high or with the manual lever. When adjusted correctly its extremely smooth even with stop and go traffic in cities.

Same load and trailer behind my truck, I must set the OEM Ford controller to 10 to get any braking power. Not even close to locking up the brakes with manual lever.

I've had the P2 in previous trucks and they were excellent as well. Can't go wrong with them.

[beekeeper.va]

"- The pads were worn a bit too much for the miles"
This statement by the OP has me wondering what is really going on. If the pads are worn too much for towing miles, the trailer ought to be stopping.

Is it possible the trailer brakes are dragging all the time?

I tow with a Volvo VNL660 road tractor. I installed a DROK Volt/ammeter with a Hall Sensor coil on the blue wire of the controller. With my mag brakes, it showed the truck sent 13.6 amps to the magnets and even that did not lock up the trailer brakes. When replacing the axles with disc brakes, it only takes .8 amps to lock up the trailer brakes.

Don't know anything about factory installed systems but it seems about anything ought to be able to send .8 amps to the trailers hydraulic controller.

Does your truck controller show amps out?

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by beekeeper.va

"- The pads were worn a bit too much for the miles"
This statement by the OP has me wondering what is really going on. If the pads are worn too much for towing miles, the trailer ought to be stopping.

Is it possible the trailer brakes are dragging all the time?

I tow with a Volvo VNL660 road tractor. I installed a DROK Volt/ammeter with a Hall Sensor coil on the blue wire of the controller. With my mag brakes, it showed the truck sent 13.6 amps to the magnets and even that did not lock up the trailer brakes. When replacing the axles with disc brakes, it only takes .8 amps to lock up the trailer brakes.

Don't know anything about factory installed systems but it seems about anything ought to be able to send .8 amps to the trailers hydraulic controller.

Does your truck controller show amps out?

The brake pads have been confirmed as not dragging. My opinion only is that Kodiak 225 calipers, designed by General Motors for the front of a 3000 pound car are ibarely sufficient for a 12,000 pound 5th wheel. Even with 2X the number on a trailer of those calipers that were on one of those cars only puts you at 6000 pound design capacity plus some unknown margin. If I had done a bunch more homework, may have been able to fit the Kodiak 250 size which were designed for a 4000+ pound vehicle including 1500 series GM pickups. I might have even opted for the four piston Dexter design instead though at a bunch more dollars.



Your second statement - no clue what the current draw is with a Ford integrated control put out. It gives you level settings, 1-10. These Ford controllers are somewhat flaky as I'm starting to find. Most work just fine, others don't. This is one of the reasons that I'm interested in using a Prodigy controller.

[jjwhite368]

I heard the same horror stories about Ford brake controller, in fact my daughter-in-law had to replace hers in her 12 F250 that she used to haul her horses. The shop I used to set my truck up had stories too but suggested I try towing before doing a wholesale swap. First tow I started out at 6.5 and have had to reduce gain to 5. Braking is very smooth.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by jjwhite368

I heard the same horror stories about Ford brake controller, in fact my daughter-in-law had to replace hers in her 12 F250 that she used to haul her horses. The shop I used to set my truck up had stories too but suggested I try towing before doing a wholesale swap. First tow I started out at 6.5 and have had to reduce gain to 5. Braking is very smooth.

Best I can find is that Ford upgraded that controller about the 2015/6 time frame.



The P3 is not that expensive vs safety ~$150 with their 2 plug adapter plus a reflash to shut the OE dash trouble light off. A P2 is a bit less but with fewer features

[dieselguy]

Dave W stated "My opinion only is that Kodiak 225 calipers, designed by General Motors for the front of a 3000 pound car are ibarely sufficient for a 12,000 pound 5th wheel. Even with 2X the number on a trailer of those calipers that were on one of those cars only puts you at 6000 pound design capacity plus some unknown margin."

My current fiver is right at 13K loaded for travel. We had to make a panic stop a couple of years back just south of Amarillo on highway 27 due to unlabeled road construction and a bunch of cars stopped dead in the highway. Starting braking at @ 58 mph with the same Kodiak calipers as you, we left a very long trail of trailer skid marks coming to a stop in a cloud of blue tire smoke. The Kodiak system is more than adequate to stop our trailers. Yes we had flat spots, but didn't crash into anything.

Somethings going on with your brakes, actuator, or controller, I just don't have any ideas.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by dieselguy

My current fiver is right at 13K loaded for travel. We had to make a panic stop a couple of years back just south of Amarillo on highway 27 due to unlabeled road construction and a bunch of cars stopped dead in the highway. Starting braking at @ 58 mph with the same Kodiak calipers as you, we left a very long trail of trailer skid marks coming to a stop in a cloud of blue tire smoke. The Kodiak system is more than adequate to stop our trailers. Yes we had flat spots, but didn't crash into anything.

Somethings going on with your brakes, actuator, or controller, I just don't have any ideas.

If I gave you the impression they didn't work, I apologize. What I said, or thought I said is that the 250 calipers might be better and the Dexter even better yet with the 4 piston calipers.


If you have 7K axles, you most likely have 250 calipers. I have 6K axles and have the smaller, lighter duty 225 calipers. Yes, the 225s will (used to!)leave long smoky black streaks if the manual override was operated but once they lock up, the coefficient of friction between tires and road is way diminished. I would prefer that these brake to ALMOST lock up. Am I expecting too much from a cloned 1980s automobile product? Maybe, but that's my engineering thinking.


I ran out of ideas and started researching the controller since everything else seems to work as designed, even the smaller calipers.

[dieselguy]

I agree that a skidding tire looses some of its maximum stopping power, I was just throwing out my example of a brake pedal actuated situation when we topped the rise and saw nothing but brake lights. I'd guess that larger pistons would just enable the wheels to lock up even better. Until someone designs antilock brake controllers and related hardware for our pull trailers, it's just going to be up to the owners to dial them in for the best stopping results.Then you can just see the $$$ for such a system. Bottom line ... once you get your issue resolved, disk brakes are incredibly better than magnet actuated drum.

[Roy & Georgia]

Had trouble with my 2012 F350 breaks while pulling my 5er to cg in the mountains. Maxed out the settings and even using the manual breaking was barely noticeable. Think I’m going to be looking into the P3.

[GAinaMontana]

My Hydrastar with Kodiak brakes work great with OE controller set at 7 gain and medium effort on a 2015 F350.

[Dam Worker]

My OEM brake controller will skid my Montana’s brakes if I set it up in 5he higher range. Yes my Montana still had drum brakes. No issues with stopping power although I would like disk brakes mainly due to less fade. I really hope everyone has set up the brakes correctly when inputting the braking system information.

Tom

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by GAinaMontana

My Hydrastar with Kodiak brakes work great with OE controller set at 7 gain and medium effort on a 2015 F350.

Originally Posted by Dam Worker

My OEM brake controller will skid my Montana’s brakes if I set it up in 5he higher range. Yes my Montana still had drum brakes. No issues with stopping power although I would like disk brakes mainly due to less fade. I really hope everyone has set up the brakes correctly when inputting the braking system information.

Tom

As I said above in my Post 11, some Ford brake controllers, I've dound from some of my on line wanderings, work just fine, others don't.