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Old 02-27-2013, 11:51 AM   #41
bigskyjimmy
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Good point Rich, alot people will never be totally Honest about any problems about their Rigs especially high end units because of pride ,your reports just let owners ,people looking to purchase a Montana and Keystone know about issues so they they can bulid a better unit as the years go by(HOPEFULLY)
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:47 AM   #42
richfaa
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Those of us who are fortunate enough to go to the Fall rallies in Goshen over the years (we have been to all but the first one) understand that there have been many changes over the years to the Montana line and that Keystone does listen to owner input and make changes sometimes right on the line.We have all seen the factory reps at the "show and tell" taking notes.

The assembly line issues occur at all the manufacturers and the first manufacturer who will spend the $$$ to develop and implement a effective quality control program will stand above the others in sales. We did note that in the new Montana factory there was more room at the end of the line for the quality control folks.Effective quality control however must be done at every step of the assembly.That will slow down the line and cost the manufacture money.Manufacturers just have not seen or understood the long term benefits of good quality control.Judging from this 13 3402 and our previous 06 3400 the quality control is much better.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:34 AM   #43
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Those of us who are fortunate enough to go to the Fall rallies in Goshen over the years (we have been to all but the first one) understand that there have been many changes over the years to the Montana line and that Keystone does listen to owner input and make changes sometimes right on the line.We have all seen the factory reps at the "show and tell" taking notes.

The assembly line issues occur at all the manufacturers and the first manufacturer who will spend the $$$ to develop and implement a effective quality control program will stand above the others in sales. We did note that in the new Montana factory there was more room at the end of the line for the quality control folks.Effective quality control however must be done at every step of the assembly.That will slow down the line and cost the manufacture money.Manufacturers just have not seen or understood the long term benefits of good quality control.Judging from this 13 3402 and our previous 06 3400 the quality control is much better.
Well stated Rich and on point.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:16 PM   #44
DonandBonnie
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We've been full timing in our Big Sky 3700RL since mid-October. Maybe we aren't looking hard enough, but we've had minimal issues with our rig. Yes, the lug nuts are rusting and with a new rig the lug nuts need torqued after a few hundred miles. Inside one of the shower doors was sticking. A quick turn of the screw driver fixed that. Other than than, we've had no problems and have been highly satisfied with our new home.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:52 PM   #45
suma08
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2013 3750FL

Traded our 2012 3850RL for the 3750FL. This unit is a dream comparedto the 3850RL. We are fulltiming and have no issues at all.
We had constant problems with the RL. We couldn't be happier. We
towed the old trailer with a Ram 2500 5.7 L . This one we jumped to
a Big Horn 3500. World of difference with the power & love the compression retarder.

Ken & Penny
Bothell, WA
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:51 AM   #46
richfaa
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The fact that one person can have little or no problems and another a few or many is yet another indication of the lack of effective quality control. Effective quality control done at every step of the assembly can result in near zero defects. The fact that the problems are random means that quality is up to the individual workman or crew on that unit and not a effective quality program. We have seen the assembly process at the factory as many have.The quality checks are at the end of the line indicated by all that red tape stuck on the units.They do find many issues that they can see.The quality checks need to be done at each assembly station before it moves to the next station.It is a credit to the workman that they turn out the product they do.The product can be much better but the cost VS benifits apparently do not justify the additional expense.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:55 AM   #47
grayghost03
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Many items will be found by the dealer(if you have a good dealer), many will be found on a very careful PDI, but if you and the dealer can't find these items, its probably not going to be found by a QC person that spends 15 minutes on final inspection. Much less wiring, defects in components(most not evident until put into use). Higher quality components would help, perhaps, but that cost money and there go your bang for your buck. Rich is right, its being sure that your line workers are properly trained. That and as he said, inspections throughout the process. Rich and his dealer did a very careful PDI and still found things on the road, such as cabinets not closing properly. They(and we) ain't going to catch em all.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:06 AM   #48
richfaa
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Cold last night. Found that there is no heat out of the register in the John room or the vent in the side compartment. Little thing but we will not correct it as it is behind the wall of the compartment. Another example of poor workmanship, lack of attention to detial and no quality control.Service center warranty work.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:12 AM   #49
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quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Cold last night. Found that there is no heat out of the register in the John room or the vent in the side compartment. Little thing but we will not correct it as it is behind the wall of the compartment. Another example of poor workmanship, lack of attention to detial and no quality control.Service center warranty work.
What or where side compartment Rich?
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:02 AM   #50
bethandkevin
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by richfaa

Cold last night. Found that there is no heat out of the register in the John room or the vent in the side compartment. Little thing but we will not correct it as it is behind the wall of the compartment. Another example of poor workmanship, lack of attention to detial and no quality control.Service center warranty work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That was one of the small items on our list Rich. The result of cheap duct tape holding the duct onto the outlet instead of stapling and sealing with GOOD duct tape. A lot of effort to repair this simple item considering what we load in the basement of our rigs. A half hour to unload and remove panel. 60 seconds to repair correctly. Another half hour to reload and organize again. A lot of frustration. The DW wanter her air plane back in the bath room though.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:31 PM   #51
richfaa
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by BethandKevin

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by richfaa

Cold last night. Found that there is no heat out of the register in the John room or the vent in the side compartment. Little thing but we will not correct it as it is behind the wall of the compartment. Another example of poor workmanship, lack of attention to detial and no quality control.Service center warranty work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That was one of the small items on our list Rich. The result of cheap duct tape holding the duct onto the outlet instead of stapling and sealing with GOOD duct tape. A lot of effort to repair this simple item considering what we load in the basement of our rigs. A half hour to unload and remove panel. 60 seconds to repair correctly. Another half hour to reload and organize again. A lot of frustration. The DW wanter her air plane back in the bath room though.
I figure that is exactly the case with us.We will let the service center expend the time and manpower to correct the proble. Dennis there is a heat duct into the side compartment door side.That is the good news..The bad news is it does not work.This cold spell in Florida revealed the lack of heat in those areas.
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:55 PM   #52
bigskyjimmy
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My vent in the storage does not even have a hose connected to it ,I thought maybee it fell off so i took the whole panel off and there is no hose anywhere near the vent SOOOOOOO..why did they bother with a vent??? for looks??? it got really cold up here in the NW this year and my plumming never froze so they did something right I guess....WEIRD
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:49 PM   #53
Bigboomer
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We had the same issue with our rig about a month ago....I was in the WC when the furnace kicked on and was wondering why there was no hurricane coming thru the vent...So upon completion of my task I opened up the basement and low and behold the flexible duct had come loose and off. I also noticed the bedroom vent was not pushing warm air as well and found the same thing but that the sleeve into the main metal duct had come out and was only held up there with some cheap foil duct tape.
So had to empty the basement, remove the wall and redo the sleeve with some zippy screws and new duct tape.
Now everything works just peachy....but what a pain to have to remove the contents of the basement for 15 minutes of work.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:41 AM   #54
richfaa
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So now I have got to tell the service center to check all the ducts and make sure they are properly installed..
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:56 PM   #55
richfaa
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So I looked down the duct and did not see anything down there. I took off the vent cover and unscrewed the rest of it from the floor. Nothing connected to it.Looked down the hole in the floor and there is the hose It had never been installed. It had however been heating the underbelly. Duct tape and hose clamp on hand.We now have heat in the John room.Excellent quality control and attention to detail.Think I will add up all the time spent correcting Montanas poor workmanship and send them a bill.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:08 AM   #56
richfaa
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Had the last three days off and we checked this thing over stem to stern top to bottom inside and out and did not find a single thing broken..I must be slipping.I need a bigger trouble list to justify a visit to the service center. The improperly installed strut on the side compantment door is my biggest problem and the rusting lug nuts just P&^%$$ me off. The weird reading propane regulator corrected itself. The tank indicators are never going to work, none of them do. The problem list was so minor and so simple that even I could repair everything. What to do,,,, what to do...
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:39 AM   #57
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Could be time to end this post?
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:53 AM   #58
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quote:Originally posted by steves

Could be time to end this post?
Not yet, hasn't reached the record of 44 pages, yet!
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:27 PM   #59
mlh
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It sounds like this has been a relatively trouble free unit at least no major problems. Every body would like a unit without any problems but that would require a a lot of quality control and QC is very expensive. How much extra would you be willing to pay for the extra QC? As for me NONE.
Lynwood
Thanks for the report Rich, I've enjoyed it.
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:25 PM   #60
richfaa
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Well here we are again. The Norcold Fridge in our 9 month old.. Best you can buy, top of the line 3402 Big Sky stopped working. It does not cool at all..We are thrilled.Helen has tossed maybe 200.00 worth of food. Did I mention it is 9 MONTHS old.We called Norcold, Keystone and between the two of them a Mobil service will be here in the AM to take a look. We are not happy campers.....Did I mention it is 9 MONTHS old/. E mail to Aram expressing our displeasure.Norcold already knows.
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