FYI Convenience Center

[Phil P]

The issue here is not how well you like your unit.

Every manufacturer produces a percentage of their product that just didn’t get put together correctly.

At the rally I was able to look at several units built the same year as ours. In the area I have my problems they were properly built. They had been finished so that there weren’t any water leaks. The place were I have the most serious problem didn’t have problems in the other units.

We had problems with the Keystone built portion of this trailer from the very first time we tried to use it. Keystone has a record of these problems.

But Keystone has decided to just stick me with the lemon without helping. They are using a section in the owner’s manual as an excuse not to help. This section doesn’t say any thing about disassembling the trailer to see if Keystone built it correctly. They say it does.

Had Keystone acted like legitimate business people and taken care of these problems when they became aware of them (most in the first 90 days) I would be just as vocal about their business like conduct as I am about their misconduct.

Phil P

[richfaa]

No it is a fact.22 Montana's a day. I am sure some one out there can remember and verify that. The present plant produced only the Montana line, not the big sky. Not the mountaineer..just Montana's. That entire line from the frame in to the finished product out was a Montana. Can't remember how long that line is I think there are 16 stations, could be wrong. The line moves pretty fast which is some of the problem with less than perfect quality. Even then, if anyone can remember, Montana had a back order of several months.This was the info given on the factory tours.

[JohnG3]

I bought another cover for the 4" hole in the bottom of the conv. center and installed a coupling in the cover for the water hose and cable/sat line. Now no bugs.

[Parts Ed]

Good idea!! Since we are going to the dealer this weekend for some warranty work, I will have to drop by the Parts Dept. and see if they have a cover in stock and see if I can screw one up!!!

[JohnG3]

You may be able to find one at any RV store. Just drill holes slightly smaller than the plastic hose coupling and cable coupling and put a bit of silicone around each when you screw them into place.

I also made up a short piece of hose that went from the coupler in the to the domestic water in and for the cable connection so once installed I didn't have to remove the cover. Only downside was it is a bit more difficult to hook up the water and cable.

[richfaa]

We have not had any of the mentioned issues with our Convenience center on our 06 3400. It was caulked. We have never screwed those plugs in. We leave them open so that any water that gets in like when when you unplug the hose connections can get out. We do not have a bug issue..lucky I guess. We did check all those water connection behind the panel as part of the PDI when purchased and there were no leaks. Looking behind that panel is part of our yearly routine maint and we have had no leaks in over 5 years..again ..lucky I guess. The only water leak we have ever had is when the check valve cracked and had to be replaced this year.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

We have not had any of the mentioned issues with our Convenience center on our 06 3400. It was caulked. We have never screwed those plugs in. We leave them open so that any water that gets in like when when you unplug the hose connections can get out. We do not have a bug issue..lucky I guess. We did check all those water connection behind the panel as part of the PDI when purchased and there were no leaks. Looking behind that panel is part of our yearly routine maint and we have had no leaks in over 5 years..again ..lucky I guess. The only water leak we have ever had is when the check valve cracked and had to be replaced this year.

Hi

When we were at the rally at Marion NC I looked at 3 other 2009 units 2 of them the same model as ours.

They were properly built as well. They had no leaks in the area.

So it is a general consensus of the group on this forum that Keystone in their normal production of these units caulked the area concerned.

For this reason I feel that any manufacturer with any kind of integrity would help with the repair of damages caused by their overlooking part of their normal production procedures.

I have been watching the information here about the PDI. We did not get a PDI inspection when they delivered our unit to us. Nothing in any of the paperwork from Keystone says any thing about a PDI.

Phil P

[Tom Gina 06]

Just wait until your graphics fall off Phil. I have owned many RV's over the years and many times the dealer is where the units sold should get the proper PDI. I have not had one unit ever come to me in perfect condition it was the amount of things left undone or not up to standard that becomes the issue. This is where a good dealer takes the time to pre check the potential issues and fixes them before the unit leaves the property. Finding a good dealer is probably harder than finding a good make or model no matter how good or bad the manufacturer is.

When one spends more time fixing the problems instead of enjoying it is when the issue becomes a topic for discussion here. Kind of like the graphics falling off many of the 2007 rigs out there today. Sure I am not happy about it but what can I do other than choose how to process the problem and fix it to my satisfaction.

Many of us are using our rigs in a full time status which creates more problems when it come to maintenance and keeping up with them. Just like a stationary home Poo Poo happens and things go wrong. Now throw in moving our homes down the wonderful highway system we have and just how much abuse our rigs take. I think sometimes we forget to take that into consideration.

I am not condoning or making excuses for Keystone, I have many issues with them and have given up a long time ago trying to deal with the factory. I also after owning one that leaked water into the interior slides less than one month out of the factory will look for many of the issues myself when I purchase again. This is because most dealer service people do not have a clue. I like Rich do many inspections and check things looking for potential problems before they become an issue. For older folks this can be a problem because many of the things I look at require me to climb a ladder or crawl into places that many can't go.

We do not live in our Montana anymore just use it for vacation a couple of times a year. I can tell you this, my wife and I actually miss living in it. Sounds crazy but the convenience and comfort of having your home with you all the time goes without saying. Nice to have the whole family cat dog and all your stuff in it's proper place instead of a suit case well nothing better. Sleeping in your own bed and having your own bathroom to use while on the road, well I think we all get the point.

The reason I love this forum is because I can come here and usually find the information I need to fix the problem I am having. I maybe not to happy about how much work some of the fixes take i.e. (graphics suck). Not to mention get a chuckle or two out of some of the postings that our people put out here. I believe you are right and many of us feel the RV industry as a whole needs some sort of regulation for basic things to include most of the larger issues that we seem to face everyday. Thing is the Keystone Montana is a well designed rig and has very user friendly layouts for the money. If some other manufacture decides to come out with many of the same designs, plus quality control, for the money then they might get into trouble. The consumer will rule those choices and make that decision for them in the end.

[Phil P]

Thanks Ton Gina 06 for your response.

I posted this thread to alert any one that has recently purchased a unit from Keystone that the convenience center on mine had not been caulked in any manner from the factory and the only way to find this out is to remove the basement wall and look at the back of the panel.

If Keystone expects the purchaser to inspect the unit in person before deliver to determine they built it correctly then they need to put that in their paper work for the trailer. There is nothing in the paperwork on this unit that even indicates the new owner is responsible to determine that the dealer did a proper deliver inspection. Under the Universal Commercial Code in moat states this is commonly part of the dealers contract with the manufacturer. Not the new owners contract with the manufacturer.

This is the first new travel trailer we have purchased. We have had more problems with this trailer than we had with the used Coleman popup or the used 22 ft Hi-Lo. Both of these were between 8 and 10 years old when purchased.

If I listed all of the items that have been repaired or replace on this unit because Keystone either didn’t do the construction properly or used parts and material that were not suited for the application the list would be larger than your post. Keystone paid for less than half of the repairs to make this unit usable.

We started out full timing. Because of the crash in the real estate market we gave our home free and clear to my son. After a year he gave it back because the place was too big for him to maintain and work at the same time. We still use the trailer more than most. We just returned from a month long 4,000 mile trip and make short trips every month.

I now have out of pocket expenses that equal 40% of what I paid for the unit new.

I have stated I got a LEMON trailer and a LEMON dealer and a manufacturer that has no INTEGRETY.

Phil P

[pbahlin]

A simple way to keep out the critters without dealing with the 4" hole....

Just get some suitable weather stripping and 'fill up' the gap between the door and the left side of the convenience center. The bugs can have a party in the convenience center but can't get past the weather stripping into the unit itself.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Phil,

The trick here is to get Keystone to put that in writing. Hopefully they did. Then use it against them. Go to generic 5th wheel forums like RV.net and tell everyone that this is Keystone's official policy, with direct quotes from their letter, with this advice on how to protect themselves.

All buyers of new Keystone products should add dealer dissasembly and inspection of critical areas such as the Convenience Center to Pre-Delivery Inspections (PDI).

Keystone dealers will be thrilled at prospective customers demanding PDI's costing thousands of dollars because of Keystone's official warranty policy, as stated in writing by them in your case. And they'll let Keystone know about it.

Be sure to include the name of the Keystone idiot who signed the letter to you.

Be thorough enough in doing this and Keystone might pay you off.

quote:Originally posted by Phil P
Now that Keystone has reviewed the report from the dealer (I paid the dealer $150 for this report) they have informed me of the following.

They informed me that the maintenance manual that comes with the unit says the owner is recommended to dissemble the unit as required to inspect and reseal all areas that have sealant.

They further informed that this requires the owner to disassemble the unit IE remove all sink drains, remove all paneling or cabinetry as needed to inspect and reseal all items that have sealant on them.

This includes the roof, shower stall, all doors, waste plumbing, water lines and the water center. The fact that the unit had been returned to the dealer (which they have a record of) many times for water leaks at the shower stall, cargo doors, waste plumbing and the water center is of no value because the owner didn’t have the unit disassembled and resealed at 3 months. I didn’t bother to inform them that the manual says 6 months. The manual that comes with the unit has on page 55 recommendation that the owner inspects all sealants for deterioration and repair as necessary every 6 months.

So this put Keystone in the position of having a way to avoid any responsibility for not building the unit correctly once it is 6 months old. Regardless of who does the work if there is deterioration do to water intrusion Keystones position is that it’s the owner responsibility after 6 months. Even thought their dealer was the last one to work on trying to stop the water leaks they maintain the manual lets them off the hook on the ground that the dealer didn’t do the job correctly.

Keystone did not caulk the water center drain or any of the water hose attach points in the water center. The manual requires the owner to be responsible to do this at 6 months and that is the end of the story as far as Keystone is concerned. The fact that the floor of the basement was soaking up water from the first time I connected a water hose to the unit and I reported this to the dealer that then reported it to Keystone to get paid for warranty has no concern to Keystone.

[exav8tr]

I think the key is to withold any payments to the dealer, as many others do, until ALL the PDI discrepancies are fixed to your satisfaction. The problem comes in with all us newbies buying these things and expecting perfection from the gitgo and not knowing these things are not perfect when we tow them off the lot...

[richfaa]

You are correct PhilP . If keystone failed to caulk the center it is on them to correct it as well as any other thing they failed to do. It is also inexcusable but not surprising that it happens if you have toured any of the plants and seen the build process. A responsible dealer will do a PDI on delivery but it is still the responsibility of the buyer to insure that the unit meets his approval before leaving the lot. We do a PDI on out cars and trucks before we sign on the line. These Rv's are labor intensive. They are complex units that some of us use hard. The harder one uses them the more labor intensive they are. Our PDI took over 8 hours and two days to complete and rolled off the dealers lot with everything to my satisfaction.. It still nearly burned down in "Q" six months later. We have had three holding tanks replaced, Two Hydraulic lines leak and replaced. We had 23 items on our warranty repair list when we took it back to the service center 11 months after purchase all little things but all due to poor workmanship like stripped screws. Loose molding. We still check for loose nuts, bolts, screws. We check the caulking on the entire unit on a regular basis. We spent many hours this summer under, over, looking behind panels on this thing.We did replace the main awning cover that had begun to get brittle and tear. We did not wait for it to fail. We did have a check valve leak and replaced that.We did have the circuit board for our furnace get wet as a result of the check valve crack but were able to catch that in time and correct it myself. We do have good local dealers but I rely on myself and experts on this forum to make sure we perform proper maint and when we have dealer work done we are right there making sure it is done right. I don't like it....no payment.

We did have the Mor Ryde IS suspension installed two years ago after a axle shifted due to my negligence in not performing the required maint. I never had confidence in the OEM suspension on this 06 3400 anyhow.

This 06 3400 has 50K miles maybe more on it. It has been used hard. This is our 5th rv and all of them were labor intensive. When we purchased this 3400 in 06 we expected to get 5 years out of it considering the way we planned to use it. We are past 5 years and it has exceeded our expectations but not without some failures and a lot of hard work on our part.

[pineranch]

Good post Rich, some expect perfection while others deal with reality.
Thanks again,
Mike

[Phil P]

Hi

What do you suppose would happen if I wanted the GM dealer we purchased the Duramax from to remove the wheels, Doors. Floor covering, headliner, seats and firewall covering etc so I could look to see if GM’s production had put it together correctly?

Phil P