fifth wheel pin box failure - Montana Owners Club

jimkottke · 02-15-2011, 09:14 AM

Has anybody ever had a pin box failure? I have a2005 big sky 3770RL fifth wheel. When I arrived at Llano Grande park resort the fifth wheel was riding on my truck bed rails. I think the pin box bent.

scattershot · 02-15-2011, 09:28 AM

Got any pics? Sounds like the receiver wasn't hitched properly. Was it still attached to the receiver plate?

camper4 · 02-15-2011, 09:32 AM

I have seen one on SOB. It was about 1/2 inch off the bed rails. As best you can, use a flash light and look all around and up under the pin frame. I saw torn metal near a weld .( The landing gear was used to off load the truck to enable looking at it. )
In the case I saw, he had a local portable welder come to bend and weld the torn metal. It required removal of some of the plastic under the bedroom/closet area.
It got the SOB out of the parking lot and home. If it were me, I would have had it put on a flat bed and hauled to the nearest capable frame/rv shop for repair.
Good luck with your issue. It takes someone with equipment and know how if you have a frame failure.

capn chris · 02-15-2011, 09:41 AM

Jim,
YES. We had pin box failure (welds broke/pulled away) then frame beams broke. Same symtoms, on the bed rails. Lippert sent a welder after working w/Keystone Customer Service w/new beams and box w/welder. Take pictures! The worst stuff is after you get the overhang cover (below the bedroom around the pin box)pulled down. More pictures! Send to Keystone!! Email me if you want pictures and details or to talk. Several years ago, but it turned out OK. Do not move it til you get a plan w/Keystone.

jsmitfl · 02-15-2011, 03:39 PM

Mine is broke right now. Also the frame under the front slide. Lippert and Keystone will not cover mine because of the age. 2001. Still waiting to get estimate from dealer. There is alot of rust and the metal tore loose. Some of the welds are broken and still in place. The screws holding the aluminum frame to the steel frame were all gone also.

HamRad · 02-15-2011, 04:45 PM

Jsmitfl,
I know that a 2001 model is a rather old model but it seems to me that something as critical and as basic as the frame and kingpin should be something that would be covered forever. Sounds like a basic bad design problem and all the more reason that Keystone should cover the repair. I assume you have exhausted all contacts within Montana but have you worked with the management guys in Keystone? If not I'd certainly try them too. And if worse comes to worse you might try the complaint thing with Good Sam or whatever. They sometimes are able to get positive results after all else has failed. Good luck and let us know if you get something worked out. Dennis

SlickWillie · 02-16-2011, 02:27 AM

Several threads over on rvnet. Seems that was a Cougar fifth wheel. Personally, I would file the paperwork with the NHTSA (actually online). One failure is too many on a pin box. This is a lot worse than the Chinese tire issue. I sure don't want to be towing the unit with the truck bed rails!

richfaa · 02-16-2011, 03:05 AM

In the earlier models up to about mid 05 I believe there was a known issue called frame flex that sounds like the issue you have. Keystone has corrected that issue at no cost to the owner many, many times.

capn Chris gives good advise. Call Keystone customer service and advise them you have what "looks" like the known frame felx issue.

ols1932 · 02-16-2011, 04:03 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by HamRad

Jsmitfl,
I know that a 2001 model is a rather old model but it seems to me that something as critical and as basic as the frame and kingpin should be something that would be covered forever. Sounds like a basic bad design problem and all the more reason that Keystone should cover the repair. I assume you have exhausted all contacts within Montana but have you worked with the management guys in Keystone? If not I'd certainly try them too. And if worse comes to worse you might try the complaint thing with Good Sam or whatever. They sometimes are able to get positive results after all else has failed. Good luck and let us know if you get something worked out. Dennis

Dennis,
It's not a Keystone problem; it's a Lippert problem. In 2007 when I went to get my front end repaired (nothing broken, just 1 3/4 inch flexing) we had the front end beefed up with gussets added to the king pin area. Also, the repair shop added large bolts on both sides from the basement area into the propane bottle areas to keep the body from flexing in that area. It cost us $3100 but was well worth it.

They also replaced and/or tightened the screws in the aluminum because the flexing caused them to pull out. That part of the repair should be covered by Keystone, but it wasn't in our case. I've checked them several times since the repair was made and they have not pulled out again.

Pictures were taken before and after by the repair shop so they could talk to Keystone and Lippert. Since it wasn't a Keystone problem, the repair shop tried to get Lippert to "help" me out by paying part of the repair but they said no. Ours is a 2000 and can't be guaranteed for life. I'm surprised that any of the 5th wheels on the road today full time even stay together.

Orv

HamRad · 02-16-2011, 06:20 AM

Orv,
Sorry to hear of your problem. I understand your statement about Keystone not being responsible. I have to disagree. They are the ones who ordered and accepted the defective frame from Lippert. In my mind once they do that they are just as responsible as Lippert. Of course I think that both Keystone and Lippert should have stepped up and taken care of you. I don't care how long has passed. If you produce something that is known to be defectice...... No matter how long passes it is still defective. And since they produced a defective product they should be responsible.

OK. OK. I'll get off my soap box. It does no good to rant about it so I;ll stop. Good luck. Dennis

SlickWillie · 02-17-2011, 12:57 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by HamRad

Orv,
Sorry to hear of your problem. I understand your statement about Keystone not being responsible. I have to disagree. They are the ones who ordered and accepted the defective frame from Lippert. In my mind once they do that they are just as responsible as Lippert. Of course I think that both Keystone and Lippert should have stepped up and taken care of you. I don't care how long has passed. If you produce something that is known to be defectice...... No matter how long passes it is still defective. And since they produced a defective product they should be responsible.

OK. OK. I'll get off my soap box. It does no good to rant about it so I;ll stop. Good luck. Dennis

No rant there. That's just telling it like it should be. Total agreement here.

richfaa · 02-17-2011, 06:20 AM

It is a Lippert frame and IMO a Lippert problem or at the least a shared problem. To my Knowledge from this forum the repair concerning the frame flex issue has been done by Keystone or at Keystone direction. My guess is that Lippert and Keystone worked it out.

ols1932 · 02-17-2011, 07:07 AM

I don't believe you can hold Keystone responsible when Lippert themselves will not stand behind the product. When Keystone or any other RV manufacturer receives the chassis from Lippert, there is nothing wrong with the chassis; they don't see any problems because there has been no stress on the chassis. Sometimes I think we expect too much. Our Montana was seven years old and the chassis had taken a beating with six trips back and forth across the country. I didn't look at our problem as being anything too bad; we just went ahead and had it fixed. The company that fixed it said they felt that Lippert was the responsible company and Lippert refused because of the age of the unit. Where does one draw the line as to when the company that manufactured the unit is no longer responsible for the unit. It's another reason to have extended warranty.

Orv

HamRad · 02-17-2011, 07:55 AM

Orv,
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. I believe we can and should hold Keystone and Lippert accountable. An engineer would know if a certain design on a fifth wheel is correct or not. That is what they get paid for. In my mind it makes no difference if the thing has broken or not. They could reasonably be expected to know that the frame as designed and built would be expected to fail after a certain time. Anyway we obviously will never agree on this. I understand what you are saying and appreciate your input and participation in this thread. Thanks, Dennis.

richfaa · 02-17-2011, 08:23 AM

In the case of Frame flex there was a known problem on the early models. The frame in the pin box area was re enforced in Mid 2005 and we saw this at the factory. Many MOC'ers who had the frame flex issue on the earlier models had the problem repaired at no cost to them.

If I had a early model and suspected it was the frame flex issue I would contact Keystone Customer service. It will require pictures and verification by keystone that it is Frame flex. It can't hurt to try...

Keystone has been very good on this issue.

CmdrDewey · 03-01-2011, 05:33 AM

I had this issue on the way to the Fall Rally last year. Mine was riding OK so I continued on right to the factory. Spoke with Darrell and he looked at it and got a customer service rep whose name, unfortunately I can't remember. Anyway, she took pictures and sent them to Lippert and Lippert and Keystone worked together to fix it at no charge. The customer service rep said her husband worked for Lippert. I would try Keystone customer service- ask for a Montana Rep. Remember-you get further with honey than you do with vinegar.

It is possible you could get some help from Gooding here in the valley but I wouldn't hold too much hope.

I'm in Mission if you want to chat

jsmitfl · 03-01-2011, 06:56 AM

Well no one is stepping up to the plate on mine. Yes its old but they had no recalls. Anyway I just want to get it fixed and on with my life. Now if it breaks again I will let the dealer take care of it at there expense.

mlh · 03-06-2011, 03:49 AM

I wonder who designs these frames. Does Keystone send Lippert a blueprint of the frame they won't or does Lipperet design a frame for a unit Keystone would like to build, or does Keystone choose a frame from an off the shelf unit from Lippert. This may determine who is responsible for the frame. If Keystone designed the frame it's their baby but if Lippert designed it they would be responsible. At any rate how long can they expected to stand behind a frame. When a frame breaks is that the same problem that happened 5 years ago, and how would we ever know. We all use our campers differently. I take my camper places some people wouldn't even take their truck so if I have a problem it's my baby. None of this is to say that ismitfl is in any way responsible for his frame breaking up. If someone calls me with a problem with a product that I made, I fix it no questions ask. I will even fix my completer's products, free. Thats why I don't have any completion any more. It's just good business sense to take care of your customers.
Lynwood

SlickWillie · 03-06-2011, 04:06 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by mlh

If someone calls me with a problem with a product that I made, I fix it no questions ask. I will even fix my completer's products, free. Thats why I don't have any completion any more. It's just good business sense to take care of your customers.
Lynwood

I feel sure you meant competitor; that is a good business model in my opinion. I bought a Keystone finished product, so if the problem is a Lippert frame, Keystone should make the arrangements with Lippert to have it fixed. One more thing....I don't think every RV is built on a Lippert frame....so, if Lippert can't do it right, find someone who can.

Desert RVer · 03-06-2011, 05:17 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by ols1932

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by HamRad

Jsmitfl,
I know that a 2001 model is a rather old model but it seems to me that something as critical and as basic as the frame and kingpin should be something that would be covered forever. Sounds like a basic bad design problem and all the more reason that Keystone should cover the repair. I assume you have exhausted all contacts within Montana but have you worked with the management guys in Keystone? If not I'd certainly try them too. And if worse comes to worse you might try the complaint thing with Good Sam or whatever. They sometimes are able to get positive results after all else has failed. Good luck and let us know if you get something worked out. Dennis

Dennis,
It's not a Keystone problem; it's a Lippert problem. In 2007 when I went to get my front end repaired (nothing broken, just 1 3/4 inch flexing) we had the front end beefed up with gussets added to the king pin area. Also, the repair shop added large bolts on both sides from the basement area into the propane bottle areas to keep the body from flexing in that area. It cost us $3100 but was well worth it.

They also replaced and/or tightened the screws in the aluminum because the flexing caused them to pull out. That part of the repair should be covered by Keystone, but it wasn't in our case. I've checked them several times since the repair was made and they have not pulled out again.

Pictures were taken before and after by the repair shop so they could talk to Keystone and Lippert. Since it wasn't a Keystone problem, the repair shop tried to get Lippert to "help" me out by paying part of the repair but they said no. Ours is a 2000 and can't be guaranteed for life. I'm surprised that any of the 5th wheels on the road today full time even stay together.

Orv

I don't agree that it is a Lippert problem. It is a Keystone problem. Keystone engineered, purchased, inspected and assembled the frame for the RV. Who made it is Keystone's problem to deal with, not the RV owner.

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