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Old 06-05-2017, 12:45 PM   #1
NeedlessToSay
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Need Help - Truck to Tow!

I have a 2017/2500 Ram 4x4 Mega Cab w/short bed (6.4)...

I am planning on buying a 2018 Keystone Montana 375FL and am concerned that I will be able to tow it safely.

When I read the towing capability on their brochure it said GVWR 15,240 lbs.
On the sticker inside driver's door it said GVWR 10,000 lbs.

The 5er's travel wight was 11,868 lbs!

Am I good or do I need to change?
 
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:01 PM   #2
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You need to know the loaded pin weight of the trailer to know if you will be within any given truck's payload rating. Don't know about Ram. On my Ford there is a sticker on the door that says something to the effect "do not load in excess of xxxx lbs".
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:09 PM   #3
DQDick
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That's odd, because a Maxi Cab 4X4 is listed on a Dodge chart at my dealer as having a towing weight of 17,000 some pounds. I thought I would need a bigger truck for the new 3720, but the dealer said no and showed me. That's why we always trade with this dealer. Hard to find one that won't sell you a truck. You do need to know the pin weight and whether that will overload the truck, but since my truck isn't new I went on line and put in my VIN and it showed a total weight of truck and trailer of 23,500 and we're under that. Towed it back from the dealer and we rode and braked better than my old rig and it had disk brakes added. So once again, I'm happy with my setup, but others will tell you I shouldn't be.
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:26 PM   #4
NeedlessToSay
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The PIN weight of the trailer is 2,265 lbs...
The GAWR Rear is 6,500 lbs.
Not sure if this is what you were referring to!
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:38 PM   #5
NeedlessToSay
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The PIN weight of the trailer is 2,265 lbs...
The GAWR Rear is 6,500 lbs.
Not sure if this is what you were referring to!
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedlessToSay View Post
I have a 2017/2500 Ram 4x4 Mega Cab w/short bed (6.4)...

I am planning on buying a 2018 Keystone Montana 375FL and am concerned that I will be able to tow it safely.

When I read the towing capability on their brochure it said GVWR 15,240 lbs.
On the sticker inside driver's door it said GVWR 10,000 lbs.

The 5er's travel wight was 11,868 lbs!

Am I good or do I need to change?

Issue: "able to tow it safely" ? With an unloaded listed pin weight of 2265lbs for the trailer; truck and trailer loaded...will most likely be over your truck GVWR of 10,000lbs.

Guess it depends on your parameters for safe towing - a much discussed topic on the forum.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:53 PM   #7
Mike639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedlessToSay View Post
I have a 2017/2500 Ram 4x4 Mega Cab w/short bed (6.4)...

I am planning on buying a 2018 Keystone Montana 375FL and am concerned that I will be able to tow it safely.

When I read the towing capability on their brochure it said GVWR 15,240 lbs.
On the sticker inside driver's door it said GVWR 10,000 lbs.

The 5er's travel wight was 11,868 lbs!

Am I good or do I need to change?
Look at the combined GVWR...
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:36 AM   #8
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Couple of comments:

1. OP said 6.4 engine...that's a gasser. The weak area for a gasser is a very low CGWR.
2. The sticker noted in post #2 is the Tire and Loading Information sticker.
3. Pin weight noted by several posters is what Keystone puts in the brochure...unloaded and deliberately made light so the buyer will think he/she can get a smaller (cheaper) truck. Use 20% of the RV's GVWR for PW.
4. There is no such thing as a "combined GVWR."

Get the numbers and use them:
- Loaded truck weight...including 'real' pin weight.
- Loaded RV weight...ready to travel.

Tow capacity is the GCWR of the truck, minus the weight of the truck when ready to tow.
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Old 06-11-2017, 10:47 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by TLightning View Post
Couple of comments:

1. OP said 6.4 engine...that's a gasser. The weak area for a gasser is a very low CGWR.
2. The sticker noted in post #2 is the Tire and Loading Information sticker.
3. Pin weight noted by several posters is what Keystone puts in the brochure...unloaded and deliberately made light so the buyer will think he/she can get a smaller (cheaper) truck. Use 20% of the RV's GVWR for PW.
4. There is no such thing as a "combined GVWR."

Get the numbers and use them:
- Loaded truck weight...including 'real' pin weight.
- Loaded RV weight...ready to travel.

Tow capacity is the GCWR of the truck, minus the weight of the truck when ready to tow.

Ask any hotshot trucker (those guys taking our Montana's to the dealership) about a CGVWR. How do you think they are federally regulated? The GVWR for the truck and trailer are added together. If that "combined GVWR" is greater than 10,001 pounds then they are required to have a medical card, logbook, and HOS (Hours of service) rules apply. So, yes there is such a thing as combined GVWR.
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Old 06-11-2017, 12:11 PM   #10
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By definition, GCWR is the added total of the GVWR of the combination of vehicles.

https://ai.fmcsa.dot.gov/DataQuality...pics/GVWR.html
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Old 06-12-2017, 06:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike639 View Post
Ask any hotshot trucker (those guys taking our Montana's to the dealership) about a CGVWR. How do you think they are federally regulated? The GVWR for the truck and trailer are added together. If that "combined GVWR" is greater than 10,001 pounds then they are required to have a medical card, logbook, and HOS (Hours of service) rules apply. So, yes there is such a thing as combined GVWR.
There is no such thing as a combined GVWR and there is no such a thing as CGVWR, those are made up terms. The correct term is GCWR, as noted in my post. The correct definition, according to the Chevy brochure, is "the total allowable weight of the completely loaded vehicle and trailer."
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Old 06-12-2017, 10:31 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by TLightning View Post
There is no such thing as a combined GVWR and there is no such a thing as CGVWR, those are made up terms. The correct term is GCWR, as noted in my post. The correct definition, according to the Chevy brochure, is "the total allowable weight of the completely loaded vehicle and trailer."
So I will attach a link, the link is for federal regulations and apply to commercial motor vehicles. Keep in mind this applies to commercial vehicles. They majority of us this doesn't apply to. Laws vary by state.

So, just do a quick search of the page for "combination" and you'll see these terms are not made up.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...#se49.5.383_15
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Old 06-12-2017, 11:06 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DQDick View Post
That's odd, because a Maxi Cab 4X4 is listed on a Dodge chart at my dealer as having a towing weight of 17,000 some pounds. I thought I would need a bigger truck for the new 3720, but the dealer said no and showed me. That's why we always trade with this dealer. Hard to find one that won't sell you a truck. You do need to know the pin weight and whether that will overload the truck, but since my truck isn't new I went on line and put in my VIN and it showed a total weight of truck and trailer of 23,500 and we're under that. Towed it back from the dealer and we rode and braked better than my old rig and it had disk brakes added. So once again, I'm happy with my setup, but others will tell you I shouldn't be.
Dick if memory serves me your truck is a 3500 diesel and it appears that the OPs is a 3500 gasser. Big difference.
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Old 06-12-2017, 11:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mike639 View Post
So I will attach a link, the link is for federal regulations and apply to commercial motor vehicles. Keep in mind this applies to commercial vehicles. They majority of us this doesn't apply to. Laws vary by state.

So, just do a quick search of the page for "combination" and you'll see these terms are not made up.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...#se49.5.383_15
Commercial to non commercial is an apples to oranges comparison and totally irrelevant to anything we do here. The Feds have their own regs, which, fortunately do not apply to us. Also, if you add the GVWR of the tow vehicle and the GVWR of the trailer, you do not have the GCWR, you have the GCW...big difference. The GCWR is established by the tow vehicle's manufacturer.
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:46 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by TLightning View Post
Commercial to non commercial is an apples to oranges comparison and totally irrelevant to anything we do here. The Feds have their own regs, which, fortunately do not apply to us. Also, if you add the GVWR of the tow vehicle and the GVWR of the trailer, you do not have the GCWR, you have the GCW...big difference. The GCWR is established by the tow vehicle's manufacturer.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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Old 06-12-2017, 08:42 PM   #16
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Our Montana High Country 375FL had a loaded trailer weight of 13080 (pin weight 2350)when it was new. This weight considered no slide toppers, no water in tanks, enough food and clothes for a short weekend (family of four young kids), tools in back of camper, no bikes and only two chairs in basement storage. The thing we liked about this fifth wheel is the amount of storage rear of the axels to help minimize pin weight.

We have switched trucks since last year and load our unit much different in the front basement now(tools, ladder, air compressor, 6 chairs, few other items) and have added some additional accessories. I would estimate fully loaded pin weight (not including water) around 2600 or higher now. We also add 600-700 pounds to the trucks payload in passengers, hitch, wood, and tonneau.

Hope this helps.
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:08 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by NeedlessToSay View Post
I have a 2017/2500 Ram 4x4 Mega Cab w/short bed (6.4)...

I am planning on buying a 2018 Keystone Montana 375FL and am concerned that I will be able to tow it safely.

When I read the towing capability on their brochure it said GVWR 15,240 lbs.
On the sticker inside driver's door it said GVWR 10,000 lbs.

The 5er's travel wight was 11,868 lbs!

Am I good or do I need to change?
First, go weigh your truck with it loaded, all normal passengers, fuel, firewood, etc. Get front and rear axle weights. Subtract that from the 10000 GVWR of the truck. That is the most the truck can carry. Now, get rear axle weight, subtract it from the Gawr number in the door jam, that is how much pin weight you can have.

Also, realize a gas engine will loose about 3.5% of it' power for each 1000ft of elevation increase.

For me, no way would I tow a 42ft 5th wheel, with a SWR gas truck.
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:26 PM   #18
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First let's answer a couple things that don't seem clear. Your truck weight is 10000#. Max weight the mfg allows completely loaded. You truck will pull the 15500# approx you noted the discussion is the weight on the rear axle (pin weight) when hooked up. Get the truck weighed with full fuel and you+ family on a CAT scale. It gives you front axle and rear axle. Now take trailer weight plus 1500# and multiple by .20 (20%). Add this to your truck rear axle weight from CAT scale and compare to the rear axle allowance ( find it on the door post sticker). This is what everyone is talking about. Plus a 15000+ # trailer with a gas engine is not real desirable. Not enough power. Diesel would be better. Good luck
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Old 06-23-2017, 04:20 AM   #19
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Hi

There are a few things all of you need to keep in mind.

#1 the brochure means nothing that is sales propaganda and applies to one individual truck and that truck is real so as to cover law suits.

#2 the difference between the SRW truck and the DRW truck can be as much as 3,000 deference in weight capacity and on the Fords it is greater than that because ford uses a Sterling 10.5 rear axle for SR and the Dania 80 for DRW. The tires used on some SRW trucks are of lesser weight rating than the tires on DRW truck and sometimes this is opposite.

#3 while the federal DOT regulations apply to commercial vehicles only when the states comply with their federal grant requirements to get the highway money they had to put similar regulations in to effect and they commonly apply to all motor vehicles.

#4 you become a commercial vehicle if you try to help your friend next door by pulling his / her trailer home after his / her TV breaks down. Definition of a personal use vehicle “driver owns or leases the TV and trailer and everything carried there in is for his / her personal use”

Last but not least the door sticker states the maximum weight for that TV including everything you put in it from the fuel to the cup of coffee you have in the drink holder. The only way to find out if the pin weigh is going to exceed the weight capacity of the TV is to load the TV with all that you will carry during your tip and weight it without the trailer. Subtract that weight from the maximum weight stated on the sticker.

The dealer sales person will show you the weight ratings for a 1 ton DRW truck while selling you a ¾ or 1 ton SRW truck. This sounds like what happened to the OP of this thread.

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Old 06-23-2017, 03:26 PM   #20
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Good job Phil, It seems most people just don't understand these numbers and put too much faith in the salesman who probably never have owned a 5th wheel and truck. The brochure figures are completely bogus and can't be used, but instead confuse customers so they make the wrong choices and put too much faith in the salesman. Do the research and crunch the numbers like the advice given here on this forum. Some really bad info, but some good sound advice who have been there and done it right.
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