EVs what is coming

[mlh]

Wind generated electricity is now cheaper than natural gas and will get cheaper in time. The cost of batteries for EVs are falling fast. EVs will soon be cheaper than ICE vehicles. A carbon free future is coming. We at our age may not see it but it must happen if the plant is to survive as we know it. This is not a political statement, just a statement of reality. People can choose it ignore it or think is isn’t going to happen but it is happening now. Europe and California have already mandated ICE vehicles will be passed out the rest of us can’t be far behind.
Lynwood

[twindman]

For those of you that think solar and wind is the answer, here is a must watch video that explains everything.
https://youtu.be/N-yALPEpV4w

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by twindman

For those of you that think solar and wind is the answer, here is a must watch video that explains everything.
https://youtu.be/N-yALPEpV4w

Michael Schellenberger is a nuclear power lobbyist. So naturally he is presenting a one sided presentation of how superior nuclear is to other alternatives.

He mentions solar farms incinerating birds in the air. But that is a system that uses a very large array of mirrors to focus intense sunlight onto a pressure vessel to create steam to turn electric generators. That is not solar panels.

Be careful of a single unchallenged individual promoting an environmental savior. Especially when appealing to the sentimental side of saving wildlife. One side can be very convincing until you hear the other side.

I do believe nuclear is a good option. But of course it is not a popular option. I am all for finding the best approach to cleaning up the environment while simultaneously doing what is best for earth’s creatures including humans. But I want to hear all sides of the story and their claims and counter claims.

But this discussion has deviated to power generation rather than electric vehicles replacing ICE vehicles.

[Hblick48]

Originally Posted by BB_TX

“Those horseless carriages will never replace the horse!”

For those whose lives are intertwined with the oil industry, that is a very important part of who they are. But it is also easy to get tunnel vision. To say it takes a lot of electricity to manufacture wind turbines and solar cells, that is a very poor argument. Once manufactured, those things actually generate more pollution free power than was used to make them. The oil industry itself sucks in a huge amount of power to pull the oil out of the earth, transport it via truck, rail, and/or pipeline to the refineries, and the refineries themselves are huge power drains. And polluters. It is a dirty business. And that is a 24/7/365 operation.

As far as batteries, there will be new technology for both producing and recovering them. And once there are large numbers of EVs on the road, service trucks will likely have on board power supplies to give a quick charge in the middle of no where.

Depending on which resource you read, oil will last anywhere from 30 years to hundreds of years. Each has their own agenda, will claim their prediction is most accurate, and will use those numbers to further their cause. Truth is, no one really knows for sure.

But again, the push for clean air and environment will ultimately be the driving force toward all electric vehicle. Not a shortage of oil. And that time line will depend on further developing existing technology and new technology yet to be discovered. There will be huge fortunes to be made by who ever comes up with the breakthrough to turn the next corner. So there will be no shortage of those trying.

I love my ICE engines and have no plans of buying anything electric. But I am also practical enough to see that the move to all electric vehicles will happen in the not too distant future. If not in our lifetimes, then our kids.

I agree 100%. Also, the electric light bulb will never replace the kerosene lamp!

I recently replaced my daily driver car with a used Tesla. The car is amazing, fun to drive, and requires virtually no maintenance. I can drive it anywhere in the US using the Supercharger Network. One test drive is all it took to convince me that electric cars are the future. Take a test drive and you'll be convinced.

That being said, I still have my F250 for towing our fiver, and I don't anticipate getting rid of it any time soon.

[Snowwolfe]

How much energy is used to build and fuel a EV? Don’t forget the batteries and the charging that go along with it.

[Slufoot733]

I'm buying stock in the nearest Dilutetium Crystal mine .

[Hblick48]

Originally Posted by Snowwolfe

How much energy is used to build and fuel a EV? Don’t forget the batteries and the charging that go along with it.

I don't know the answer to that question however I'm sure is it has to be less (over its lifetime) than an the energy used to produce, fuel, and maintain an internal combustion vehicle over its lifetime IMHO. Certainly less carbon emissions from EV, even when you take into account amount emitted to produce the electricity to charge.

[mlh]

Like Bill said this discussion has changed but I think that is good. This country needs to talk about all of this.
I can see lots of problems ahead as we convert to a green future. How will we generate all the power for millions of EVs? What do we do with millions of used batteries? How do we pay for roads?
What part will nuclear play? There are new small modular nuclear power plants you carry to a site and assemble a that are supposed to be melt down proof. Are they a part of the future.
There are so many questions and so few answers. I hope we choose the right path for the sake of future generations.
Lynwood

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by Snowwolfe

How much energy is used to build and fuel a EV? Don’t forget the batteries and the charging that go along with it.

An ICE vehicle has something like 100 times more moving parts than an EV. An electric motor basically has one moving part, a rotor turning inside a fixed stator. No transmission. No cooling system. No oiling system. No liquid fuel delivery system. No emissions system. No exhaust system. There are concerns in the automotive environment about the loss of jobs due the need for far fewer parts and assembly labor. And also in the auto service industry due to far less maintenance required.

An electric motor for an EV is also a generator. When the throttle is pressed, electric power is sent to the motor. When the throttle is released, the motor becomes a generator sending electric power back to the battery. A side effect of the generation state is that it creates reverse force on the drive system, meaning it is actually providing braking power. That braking power extends the life of the regular brake system, meaning less maintenance there also.

The one big issue is still the battery. But that is far less labor intensive than the parts to build an ICE powered vehicle.

[Slow Hand]

SA i did some simple math because I/m a simple man. Here is what I came up with.
Say you drive 10,000 miles a year we all drive more than that
Next I figured 300 miles per charge. You will never get that towing.Then i figured 30 minute charge time. I bet it takes longer than that to charge the batteries for another 300 miles.
I came up with almost 17 hours waiting for your car to charge.

It may get worse if everybody is driving EV's because you now sometimes have to wait in line for gas. Now how many of you dig waiting for the guy to stop washing his windows so you can get fuel? Can you imagine what it would be like at a truck stop? There is no practical reason to mandate electric cars. This will make everything move at a snails pace. I may be old but there is no moss on my stones.

All this climate change is just because the earth does what it does not because some guy had a campfire. If you do and believe this stuff than you better not be burning wood at a camp site.

People keep saying that the storms are bigger than ever before. Wildfires are bigger than ever before. All a load. During the Dust Bowel when it didn't rain and people in the mid west lost everything and had to move. There were no cars and trucks. There were not as many people in the country. Yet this still happened. It's been a long time sense that event. But you can bet that if it happens again we couldn't make or stop it from happening.

Climate change B.S. is killing California not wild fires or earth quakes.

I threw out all my Kool Aid years ago. I guess it expired.

[Theunz]

Funny how you can have the vast majority of scientists around the world agreeing to something, but some will claim that they are all wrong and cling to what a vast few outliers believe. For those of you in that camp, I invite you to a game of chance with me. I like the odds!

[mtlakejim]

The real debate is not on what TYPE of vehicle will be used in the future but how the ENERGY for that vehicle will be created!! I have no doubt that one day the Internal Combustion Engine will be replaced. I can see there is significant progress on electric vehicles already. It would not surprise me if we make the leap to them in my lifetime but they still require a source of energy.


What I don't see is solar or wind power replacing natural gas, oil and coal as our primary sources of energy creation in less than 20-30 years if ever. There is so much infrastructure that has been built up over decades and truthfully the current "green" energy sources are simply not good enough to produce more than a tiny percentage of our requirements.


It may feel good for the local TV station to report that "green" energy produced 6% of the electricity at PEAK production for a given day (they never report what it did for the total 24 hours because it is never over 1% due to low winds or something called night time) but truth is we are simply not anywhere close to producing 100% "green" energy for several decades. And the suggestion that we should have an agenda to FORCE it to happen is simply unrealistic. We can't wreck our economy to force something that will over time happen anyway. We are gradually heading towards new technology. I recommend that we focus on RESEARCH and spend the money there rather than throwing money at feel good green projects! I'm all for research but not agenda motivated boondoggles. Thinking something all the way thru before implementing I can get behind but not knee jerk "we have to do something" doomsday kind of BS I hear from some. The sky is a little dark but it is not falling.


Before someone starts screaming at me, allow me to state: I do believe that climate change is real. It has been happening since the Earth was created. I also believe that humans do impact that change to some degree. I do NOT think we impact it as much as some would suggest. But I do think we impact it enough that we should be changing our ways. I do not think we should be in panic mode though. We should fully think thru the changes that we implement and not wreck our economy trying to force something to happen because we have an agenda and end up doing more harm than good (you know like growing corn to produce ethanol or throwing money at companies like Solendra).


For sure the folks on either extreme side of this debate need to decide it is time to meet somewhere in the middle.

[mlh]

I remember almost 40 years ago two scientists talking about the Co2 we were putting in our atmosphere and what it was doing and how it was heating up the planet. So far everything they predicted had happened. We are now seeing the effects of all that Co2. What we can’t sort out is exactly how much is climate and how much is weather. It will take decades to sort all of that out. This is the way I look at it. If you know your neighbor would like to shoot you you don’t stand in behind a large window. You take reasonable precautions.
Lynwood

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by Slow Hand

SA i did some simple math because I/m a simple man. Here is what I came up with.
Say you drive 10,000 miles a year we all drive more than that
Next I figured 300 miles per charge. You will never get that towing.Then i figured 30 minute charge time. I bet it takes longer than that to charge the batteries for another 300 miles.
I came up with almost 17 hours waiting for your car to charge.

..........

There are currently 3 types of charging stations. There are the standard 120 vac and the faster 240 vac chargers. And then there are the fast charging stations. The fast charging stations claim an 80% charge in 20-30 minutes. At 80% charge they are throttled down to protect the battery life. Not all EVs can accept the fast charging stations, but that is likely the route future EVs will take.


Emissions from vehicles (which accounts for the largest percentage of total emissions) along with all the other emissions from other sources is not only harmful to our environment, it is harmful to our health.

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by mtlakejim

The real debate is not on what TYPE of vehicle will be used in the future but how the ENERGY for that vehicle will be created!! I have no doubt that one day the Internal Combustion Engine will be replaced. I can see there is significant progress on electric vehicles already. It would not surprise me if we make the leap to them in my lifetime but they still require a source of energy.

.................

Electric motors are 85%-90% efficient. Gasoline engines are 15%-20% efficient.

Fossil fuel fired electric generation stations have an efficiency of from around 40% to 60% depending on the fuel fired to create the electric power for EVs. And of course, wind turbines and solar panels requires no fuel to operate. I am not smart enough to calculate what that results in as far as the final efficiency of operating an EV.

Have no idea what the efficiency of the process of turning crude oil from the ground into gasoline or diesel fuel at the pump is. But I would guess pretty low.

[432bartman]

My buddy sent a funny picture of a charging station for EV's and the charging station is being run by a huge diesel generator.

[BB_TX]

Originally Posted by 432bartman

My buddy sent a funny picture of a charging station for EV's and the charging station is being run by a huge diesel generator.

Must have been one of the fast charging stations, or a lack of adequate power at that location. The 240 vac charging stations pump out only 30 amps of charging power, or only 7,200 watts. But the fast charging stations pump out up to 600 vdc, up to 50-60 kilowatts!

[sourdough]

As an individual that has grown up in the middle of the "oil patch" and now an epicenter of solar and wind farms, I can say from my experience oil is the way to go for the foreseeable future IMO.

I am at a loss how anyone thinks that if they had their way, mankind was stripped of any/all advancements and put back to the stone age; living in clans, scratching the ground to eat, no lights, automobiles, industry...nothing; then all would be right with the world and it would go on forever unchanged. Wouldn't they be shocked a hundred/thousand years from now as the earth continued to cycle hot, cold, back and forth as it has done for millions of years? But some believe THEY have the answer to control the weather; the earth; the future....the arrogance is all I can say.

As far as the "renewable" resources, solar and wind. They come at a premium as well. Living in the midst of it there are very distinct differences in how they produce power and what it costs the taxpayer; solar; we are in the middle of having large solar arrays built around us. What do they all have in common? They can't pay for themselves. Every installation I am aware of goes to every taxing entity and receives tax abatements to relieve themselves of tax implications for their investments, ie; taxpayer funding. The land they build upon is either donated or leased for nothing to land "jobs" - although temporary. Facilities don't exist to transport the power so they must be built out to support the arrays. Then, if it's cloudy, nighttime etc. they just sit there and do nothing....but look horribly ugly.

Wind turbines; same type of situation - taxpayer funded through abatements and other tax breaks in an effort to go "green". Efficient? Sort of....if the wind is blowing, not really the majority of the time.

Oil: in this area they are the largest contributor to the tax base - by a large margin. They build their own infrastructure, they receive no grants, free loans etc. - they carry their own weight and give back. They employ thousands of people 7x24x365, not just during construction. Fossil fuels are THE backbone of this country, our industrialization and our foreseeable future.

Nuclear: Although politically incorrect in todays environment, nuclear is a viable, excellent source of power generation.

Is the climate changing? No doubt. Is it all mankind's fault? Not hardly. Will it change no matter what we do? Absolutely. If we kill the country....the world, will it make mother earth "whole" again and the climate become stable forever more? Not a chance. I don't think there's much of a debate about the existence of climate change - it's here, has always been here and will continue to be here. It's more about how and why it occurs. Unfortunately too many agendas get injected into that conversation and what one gets, if only listening to the media, is a very distorted view of reality. I would encourage anyone interested in delving into it a little deeper, past the media hype and paid "climatologists", to read a book called "Climate of Extremes" by Patrick J. Michaels and Robert C. Balling to get a more rounded view of the situation.

The thread was about EVs which, as was noted, evolved into the practicality of them, how do we power them and ultimately how that solution, whatever it might be, then impacts us - there were lots of questions in the initial post. Sort of like the ripples caused by a stone thrown in a pond, the initial "plop" (EV as tow vehicle question) is small but the results (ripples) are wide ranging and in reality does have a bearing on all of us as RV owners and towers. I would say in the future but some states are already mandating the elimination of fossil fuels which will certainly have a direct impact on those living there - even if the goal is realistically unattainable.

These are just my opinions formed from living in the midst of this and watching/listening/reading of all the requests from these entities over the years - and sitting here on a Sat. morning with time on my hands to type. My comments are not to argue with anyone - it is a complex issue and we all have our own thoughts and opinions on it as it should be. IMO trying to power a nation full of electric vehicles is going to cost every one of us a boatload of money to implement the infrastructure to support them - if they are ever viable. In the end, it will be what it will be. Hope everyone has a great day!

[R.S.O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by mlh

I remember almost 40 years ago two scientists talking about the Co2 we were putting in our atmosphere and what it was doing and how it was heating up the planet. So far everything they predicted had happened. We are now seeing the effects of all that Co2. What we can’t sort out is exactly how much is climate and how much is weather. It will take decades to sort all of that out. This is the way I look at it. If you know your neighbor would like to shoot you you don’t stand in behind a large window. You take reasonable precautions.
Lynwood

I agree.

After living in north central Florida for 21 years relatively unscathed we got hit by big storms in 2016 and 2017 with damage both times. We did not wait for the next one. Sold the house and all the furnishings in the spring of 2018 and hit the road.

Storm damage, homelessness, people living in their cars, days weeks or months in sweltering heat and humidity without power doesn't stay in the news for more than a week (even less in an election year).

Rebuilding takes years. Rents for the remaining places skyrocket because of the demand. Jobs are gone because the places people worked are gone.

Insurance companies arguing about whether your house was floated away (they don't pay for flood) before it was blown away go on so long lawyers have to get involved.

Since we've been out here we constantly find ourselves being pushed around by either closed federal land due to extreme drought, fire or fire danger. Parts of the country that should be relatively cool in the summer are not.

We feel horrible for the residents of the Gulf. We stayed at Barksdale AFB on our way across the last time. They lost 100 year old oaks and they are almost on the Arkansas border. Can't imaging what folks closer the the ocean are gong through this year.

They now prepare for round three:

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gtwo.php?basin=atlc&fdays=5

[mlh]

Toyota has one gasoline engine that is 40% efficient and that is a huge deal. Like Bill said most aren’t nearby that efficient. You loose a lot of efficiency though heat you haft to get rid of and friction and a water pump.
Lynwood