Ponder this....listen to the last comment in end

[Dustytuu]

Ford plant in Brazil.. Listen close to the last comments at the end.

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[Jolu]

Dusty,
One of the first things that struck me in that film was how the line workers were dressed. Looks like they have a dress code. The comments at the end pretty much tells it all.

[Delaine and Lindy]

Well I say in less than 10 years any car or Truck manufactor will not be building anything in America that is under contract with the UAW, unless there is a major contract changes. Is that the right thing to do, I don't know the answer but look were the Big 3 are today. Looked very professional factory to me , don't know how well the end Product is. GBY....

[Waynem]

It speaks volumes!

[KathyandDave]

I have had a contract with a major parts manufacturer that is exposed to the Detroit 3. They just canned my project. We may be living in the Monty, soon...in the provincial park near the local Honda plant that has been INCREASING production. They're already at three shifts. The town is wealthy. The grocery store is open 24 hours. Go figure...

[TLightning]

quote:Originally posted by KathyandDave

Go figure...

Here you go:

Companies in trouble: Chrysler, Ford, GM.

Companies doing fine: Honda, Toyota.

Difference: Big three...union other two non union.

[skypilot]

Personal Opinion here and not wanting to start a fight here (and hopefully I don't) but it is not just the unions and union culture -- I really believe it is a total cost thing and I mean the cost of owning a vehicle made by one of the big three -- I have a 96 Jeep Cherokee and an 08 Ram; my wife drives a Lexus RX350. My jeep, my daily driver, is in the shop today to repair the cataletic converter that was replaced less than 6 months ago; also having some transmission cooling lines replaced again -- 2nd time in 12000 miles (replaced 18 months ago). All of this with factory parts, done by the dealer. My 08 Dodge has had water leaks (still has a leaking windshield); doors leaking and wind noise; vibration (4 of 6 tires replaced by General Tire); ignition switch replaced, hood latch replaced -- and it only has 7500 miles on it. My wifes Lexus (made in Japan) has had two things done -- Oil changes at 1000 miles and 5000 miles. Vehicle has 9600 miles on it right now. Her past vehicle (larger Lexus SUV) was traded for this smaller one -- had 58000 (and change) on it and other than oil changes and tire rotations, not another thing done. Her car before that was also a Lexus RX -- it had a recall for a break switch. That was not only replaced, but Lexus filled her gas tank (explanation -- if it wasn't for the problem we wouldn't have had to drive 120 miles each way to the dealer for maintenance then!). I told my Dodge dealer that (my 04 Ram happened to be in the shop for a computer flash update) and the service manager just laughed!!

Guess what I'm trying to say is that if we got the quality and reliability for the wages, then buying from the Big Three would be a no-brainer. However, when you add the cost of taking your GM, CHY or FD product to the dealer so often, much less the expense of your time, alternate transportation requirements, etc.. -- it really adds up quickly. Cost of Ownership is a big thing, especially in today's economy.

One last thing -- I firmly believe that Unions have, and continue to, provide(d) a vital influence and need in our society. Albeit, union presence and prestige has decreased in the past decades, many benefits we have (medical insurance, leave and family time, etc) were won for the workers by the Unions being involved.

Thanks for letting me beat on the drum again. I pray each of you had a great Thanksgiving and are safe, warm, and with those you love!

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

skypilot

Thank you for this comment:

"One last thing -- I firmly believe that Unions have, and continue to, provide(d) a vital influence and need in our society. Albeit, union presence and prestige has decreased in the past decades, many benefits we have (medical insurance, leave and family time, etc) were won for the workers by the Unions being involved."

For the record, we have a Ford Escort and our GM Big Butt, and have to say, we have not had the kind of troubles you are talking about. The escort is a 1997, has over 150,000 miles on it, and the maintenance costs have been only what you would expect on a vehicle with that many miles, oil changes, tires, brakes, general upkeep. Big Butt had a couple of issues with the steering, both done, no questions, as recalls. We are quite happy with both.

As many of you know, Al worked at FordMoCo for over 30 years. He worked a lot, and I mean a LOT, of overtime. 12 hours, 7 days, weeks on end. The $$ was nice, but a batch of that overtime was mandatory. He was forced into it, by contract between the union and the company. There is always more than 1 side to a story. Lots of union knocking going on, all over the news, etc. Some of it is right on, some of it is so far off it is sad.

I believe, and here we go with PERSONAL OPINION, so guess you can slay the message carrier here if you so desire, that a lot of what we are hearing, bad quality, bad unions, bad everything Big 3 Auto, is based on old perceptions and in yes, in some cases, truths. This is a complicated issue, it is not simplistic, please do some research before you go slaying one side or the other.

Question, if Ford goes bust, does this plant go bust too??

Fact: Wayne Michigan Ford truck assembly plant just closed, it will be retooled to manufacture smaller fuel efficient autos. After the long retooling it will be re-opened sometime in 2010. This closure has been planned, the way I understand it. It did not happen overnight. But, I'll bet that unless you are a auto employee or ex-employee or live in the area, you never heard of this. It is part of the complicated overall picture that we just don't hear. I hear screams, of auto companies need to re-structure, and they are, I mean, , we are not driving Model T's available in one color- black - any more, are we?? We have 400,000 people who lost their jobs in Michigan alone, that is re-structuring, isn't it?? anyway---------

We hear a lot of sound bites in our world of internet and telvision newscasting. Fraid we start buying into those 30 second sound bites, giving us a simplistic quick take on what is probably a very complicated issue. Yep, ole Carol is at fault on that count too, listen, halfheartedly to a 30 second sound bite and start forming an opinion. Probably not such a good thing for me to do. Time for some down and dirty research, eh??

Ok, blast away, I am gonna go duck!

[KathyandDave]

"Companies doing fine: Honda, Toyota."

Around here, you can add Hyundai, KIA, Cami (Suzuki and others, I believe).

On the other hand, I once did some work for the top dogs at Canadian Auto Workers (split from UAW in my time, represent the workers of the Detroit Three in Canada) and learned that they are solid people. Incidentally, one of them taught me a life lesson in personal integrity. I have a great deal of respect for them, their aspirations and their contribution to our system of social benefits. Nonetheless, it seems simple to see that companies saddled with large worker benefits obligations don't do as well as others. For one thing, they are less attractive to investors and seem to have trouble innovating quickly.
I wonder if social health care (which we have in Canada, in part) and social pensions (which we barely have) would free all of the companies from these obligations so they could compete effectively. Meanwhile, the voters would have a say in the degree of benefits to be provided from their taxes (which we have in spades, but it seems to work out pretty well).

[tbhd2]

Didn't see any of those workers in Brazil driving a new Ford to work. I wonder if all those robots are going to buy a car? So who are they going to sell them to. If it doesn't have the number "1" for the first number on the VIN then it doesn't sit in my garage.
First number on the VIN tells where it was assembled. When the unions are gone then so will the middle class. As far as quality goes, We've had a Ford F-350 for thirteen years that has never had a mechanical problem along with several GM products. Our current GM mini van has almost 100K on it and only had a leaky intake gasket repaired under warranty.

[simonsrf]

Maybe another way of looking at supply and demand; I own a 3-year old $45k American made truck that is worth less than $20K. A big share of that depreciation occurred driving it out the dealers lot!

Who got the difference?, the UAW?...the workers? or the company executives? It sure wasn't me, and I'm the paying consumer.

Ask my wallet how I feel about unions, pensions, and free medical benefits for life! Ha!

[richfaa]

Skypilot said...."One last thing -- I firmly believe that Unions have, and continue to, provide(d) a vital influence and need in our society. Albeit, union presence and prestige has decreased in the past decades, many benefits we have (medical insurance, leave and family time, etc) were won for the workers by the Unions being involved"... Rich says... Absolutely true.. Lets see.. Most of the benefits we have, pensions, Medical care, Etc came through union efforts,, Management did not willingly give them, Government did not give them. Who needs pensions..Social Security is plenty, Medicare and Medicaid will take care of your medical needs and the Government mandated minimum wage is all we need. In those other countries the government provides the workers with benefits..Why not our Government..oh.oh.... that's socialism... we don't want the Government involved in anything. Management, Unions, Government need to re-evaluate how they do business and adapt to our changing world and economic conditions. Not only can that plant be built in North America it must be built in North America

So...Lets do away with all the pensions. No one should be able to collect anything but social security. Medical care should be only Medicare and Medicaid. The rank and file worker should be paid no more than Minimum wage. We don't need he big three car makers. Foreign countries and foreign workers will provide us with all the cars we need.Bankers, banks ..don't need them.. We can import our money from foreign countries ..we import everything else from them. Who needs The USA or North America. Turn everything over to Japan or China they seem to be doing a better job at everything anyhow. If we keep on doing things the way we are and our collective attitude is "who cares"..that will happen.

Why attempt to adapt and change what has been and is the best system in the world to the 21st century world. Lets just give up..... Everyone now...WE GIVE UP... We ARE BEATEN..THROW IN THE TOWEL. Write your crooked, lying,cheating, do nothing Representative. Tell them DO NOTHNG...DO NOT TRY.. Let the Government collapse..what is the worsts thing that can happen.....to you???


end of sarcastic reply.... But it can come true,,if we do not care enough.

[tbhd2]

Just to set the record straight, free pensions and medical for life? We paid for all those benefits through the years that we worked. That money was supposed to be put aside for us when we retired. Now they want to take it away and probably will.

[richfaa]

If I got a free pension I been robbed. The were taking something out of my paycheck..what was that???? Free medical care?? What was that Health care deduction that came out of my paycheck and still comes out of my pension check//I been robbed again. What is that medicare deduction that comes out of my Bus drivers paycheck and Social Security..what is that.??If it is free I want my money back...

[hazmic]

If our health insurance is so great why do the not so honest people in Washington have something different. For those that are against the unions,do you think the people that you work for gave the wages because you are kool? Do you thing that they gave you the insurance,bonuses and the other perks because you are kool? The union fought for these perks and benefits that you do or have receive because you are kool? I don't think so. We will have the unions back and they will be stronger then before. Why dose the Asian country's want the unions? OK Carol they can now take the pot shots at me now. That was a great post Rich.

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO complicated

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO emotional

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much we just don't understand or know.

Say, lets go back to horse and buggies, the original RV's?? And, lets go back to doctors that make house calls. But, we would not have Penicillin, cause that was not discovered until about 1928 (at least that is what I found when I did some research on that a few years back.)

Lots of our history of wages, and recessions, and depressions, and health care and all this stuff is hard to remember, and the PR mongrels of the world don't want us to remember or learn the "way it was"

TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO complicated.

TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO emotional.

[richfaa]

Just to clear up the myths and down right falsehoods about congressional pay and benefits here are the facts. Members of Congress do NOT receive free pensions and health care for life. They have the same retirement and health care plans that we as Federal Employees do. Both Helen and I retired under the CSRS plan and it is not free. We and they pay for it. They make a lot more money than we do so the pensions are higher as our pensions are higher than those who served at a lower pay rate. All of this information is readily available with a litle effort instead of spreading miss information.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,308378,00.html

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa031200a.htm

[TLightning]

IMHO, y'all can say whatever you want about unions, good or bad. But the bottom line (for a business, not the gov) is that unions artificially drive up wages and benefits so much that the companies they "support" are in deep trouble...the big three. The Hondas, Toyotas, et al, of the world don't have those big time costs and thus provide fine products (usually better) at a more reasonable price. Their wages and benefits are fair, thus the employees are happy, but those benefits are reasonable, not totally absurd like the big three have agreed to with the UAW.

The airlines are a good example of the union being totally unneeded. As an ATP (airline transport pilot), the FAA tells me EVERYTHING I can or cannot do regarding my flying...number of hours in any period (day/week/month/year)I can fly, number of hours rest required in any time period, number of hours night I can fly, how often and what type medical I must maintain, what my vision must be...the list is virtually endless. Trips, aircraft type, domicile and virtually everything else is based on seniority. The union is worthless and provides no usefull purpose.

Look at WalMart...fine company, providing lots of jobs, making lots of money...and all non union. Natually, the union is doing all they can to get a piece of the action. WM works their people hard, but pay and benefits are also good. They are happy and don't want the union...this from an insider in the corporate office...a family member.

[Dustytuu]

We both have belonged to unions and they have helped us. Unions, were a good thing then, but somewhere along the way some of the unions, not all, have lost what they were doing for the workers.

Some of the unions are linked to organized crime, with corruption and fraud.

Remember a company I worked for in St. Louis MO. I worked there part time. It was my evening job. The people went on strike. The company and the union agreed in a few hours after strike began. The people were back at work that evening, except the organizers of the strike. They had their hours cut and were only given 4 hours a week. I never got a chance to walk the picket line, that is how fast the union sold out. Didn't effect me but a lot of full time workers, had a big effect on their pay.
Before they decided to strike those people had serious work problems with the company! Serious enough to strike for.

I believe some unions may still help their workers and protect them to a certain extent with benefits and etc.

We have 2 dodges and have not had problems with them. Our new Dodge is the 3rd Dodge truck we have bought. My Dodge Durango has been a very good vehicle. I believe vehicles are like 5th wheels, things can go wrong and sometime not. People can get a lemon in anything. I know people that have had lots of problems with foreign vehicles too.