Revised Ontario Licence Requirements - Montana Owners Club

berridge · 10-09-2008, 03:05 AM

I have heard that here in Ontario (Canada) that to tow a trailer with a GROSS vehicle weight greater than 4600 kg an A licence with an R restriction is required. The standard drivers licence is no longer adequate. Has anyone got this type of licence and if so what is the required test like?

OntMont · 10-09-2008, 03:35 AM

It is not the GROSS vehicle weight, it is the weight transmitted to the road through the trailer wheels that can't exceed 4600 kg without an A license. (In other words the pin weight is not counted as part of the trailer weight.

We are borderline with our unit. I have weighed it both under and over 4600 kg. It depends on how much "stuff" we are carrying. There have been rumours of changes to this weight limit, but nothing seems to have come of them so far. I still have not gone for an A license test. Some things I have heard about it are:

You are essentially re-tested for your G-license as well as the additional things required for an A, so don't forget to study for both tests.
You need a medical certificate, (annually if over 65)
You need an annual re-test if over 65.
You must have a A licensed driver accompany you to the test facility.
The R restriction on the A license just prevents you from driving a tractor/trailer combination when you only used a pick-up for your test.

I keep hoping that the regulations will be modified for RV use (as opposed to commercial operations like landscape contractors and livestock farms).

Wiarton William · 10-09-2008, 06:30 AM

I will be in Millgrove this weekend...I will go to the RVDA office and speak to them...they were going to a meeting with the ministry about a month ago and I will find out what the latest info is........I am in the same position as Ontmont....there are numerous posts on it in this forum so do a search...you will find everything you need.......it is my understanding that.......according to the RVDA...that generally, if your Montana is less than 36 ft long (or was it 38 ft) you will not be required to upgrade your licence to an "A".....my unit is 34 ft and weighed at approx 4900kg ready to go(but could go as high as 6800kg..(14100lbs))) ........which is over the max by about 300kgs...BUT then it states the RV is weighed while ATTACHED to the TV....which then lowers the weight of the trailer by the pin weight..(approx 1200kg) 4900-1200= 3700kgs......no "A" lic required ... make sure your truck is licenced "RGW" to handle the weight of the PIN which is placed squarely on the truck......I had to go find this stuff... here are my scaled weights......frt axle=1960kg...Rr axle=2700kg....trailer axles=3840kg and gross wt of 8500kg....so my PIN wt should be approx 1200kg which came directly off the RV gross weight...so as far as the weight of the trailer goes it is 760kg less than the 4600 max and I do not need an "A" licence...

MacDR50 · 10-09-2008, 12:16 PM

In Newfoundland the max is 4600#'s (not including pin?) but I can't get a straight answer from Motor Vehicles WRT RV's. None of the dealers jockies use anything other than a standard drvrs. license. The province's highway enforcement people don't seem to enforce the rule as RV's are not commercial vehicles. If you are in accident they will look at the rating of the truck and trailer to ascertain if you are overweight.

Bill and Ann · 10-10-2008, 02:02 AM

This has been an ongoing subject between Wiarton William (Don), Ontmont (John) and myself in previous posts and PM's. Like John and Don, I am going to wait it out until clearer regs are in place.

MAMalody · 10-10-2008, 07:12 PM

One posting said 4600kg and the other said 4600#. Which is it?

Bill and Ann · 10-11-2008, 12:42 AM

4600kg

KathyandDave · 10-14-2008, 11:38 AM

I have gotten into this, as have the others. The MTO website has a document, dated March 15, 2008, called "Recreational Vehicle Information for Drivers of Motor Homes, Truck Campers and House Trailers". You can download it. Here are some pertinent points:
You can use a "G" license for RGW and combined weight on the scale up to 11,000kg, BUT,
"A" license is required if the trailer weight exceeds 4600kg (ours does, for sure!)
RGW includes trailer weight, i.e., the combined weight
For RGW above 4500kg, you have to have a yellow sticker and annual safety inspections, but you are exempt from the driver hours, daily inspections and logging requirements of the CVOR, i.e., no CVOR required.
You don't have to enter the weigh scales.
I'm sticking with the "G" until I learn more about the "A" requirements, since that's changing as we speak.

Wiarton William · 10-14-2008, 12:07 PM

I apologize to Berridge.. I promised to go to the ORVDA but didnt make it...I will post the info... Call Larry Boyd at the ORVDA 1-888-331-8885.......the ORVDA site doe not give too much info....

Wiarton William · 10-14-2008, 12:22 PM

As Kathy and Dave mentionned....but I will add.......the instructions are as it pertains to weights.... Precis:: Annual Truck and Trailer Safety Inspections....item 4.. Actual Weight of a Trailer....The amount of weight, loaded or empty that is transmitted to the road by the trailers axles "when the trailer is attached to the truck"...so some of the weight of the trailer will then be redistributed to the truck axles.........my RV scaled weight...approx 4900Kg.......My RV scaled weight when attached to the TV....3840Kg.......I DO NOT NEED AN "A" CLASS LICENCE... As far as the Yellow sticker(inspection device).....my truck weighs less than 4500Kg...get your truck weighed.....you may find it is under 4500 Kg..

OntMont · 10-14-2008, 02:04 PM

Just for fun, I tested an SOB salesman today. We were looking (just out of curiosity) at a Legacy by Jayco. GVWR 17500. Salesman "happened by" so I asked what it would take to pull it.
Salesman: "Oh, if you've got a dually, you won't have any problem, you can pull anything upto 24000 lbs combination".
Me: "But wouldn't I need a Class A license?
Salesman: Blank look, and repeat of the first statement.

I don't think he had a clue about license requirements.

MacDR50 · 10-15-2008, 01:05 PM

Oops. My bad I meant 4600 kg

berridge · 10-16-2008, 10:34 AM

I have spent many hours reading and trying to understand the MOT web postings and discussing the questions with the vehicle registration and licensing offices here. Even the office personnel are unsure when questioned about specific regs as they relate to drivers licence category requirements and Registered Gross Weight (RGW). As best I can determine the trailer weight is the weight exerted to the road when the trailer is attached to the TV. If this wt is greater than 4600 kg an A licence is required. There is a statement on one of the sites which says that the manufacturers GVWR is NOT to be used in determing the class of licence needed. It would seem that a document from a certified highway scale would be good to have. An A licence is expensive; medical $125, test $85 and if driver is 65 this must be done EVERY year. Further the knowledge test does contain items specific to the operation of a highway tractor trailer. There is no test for RVers. This is ridiculous and needs to be changed; RVers are being treated as if they are commercial truck drivers. As far as the Registered Gross Weight (RGW) is concerned it appears that it is the weight of the truck with the trailer attached(even though an illustration on the MOT site shows the TOTAL weight of the attached trailer being added to the truck weight which would result in my vehicle registration costing $280!). Most vehicle registrations will be incorrect as the selling dealer usually registers only the weight of the truck. Again a weigh scale document would be handy for getting things right.

Wiarton William · 10-16-2008, 12:19 PM

Berridge...........Out on the QEW near Grimsby/Vineland is a C.A.T scale at one of the Truck stops there......go and get the weights you need.....talk to the scale operator, get the truck weighed...(make sure its loaded for travel) get the trailer weighed by itself and then weight them all attached...you may find that you may only require a "D" licence.....if nothing else you will know EXACTLY where you stand.. Your downfall may just be the weight of the trailer.....it is possible that you may alter that by creative loading...it is also possible that you may have to take the hit and downsize the trailer......IF you have grown kids or close relatives you might consider parking the big trailer at a local CG or beach area and renting it to them as a summer vacation destination for family members(you will be ever so popular, trust me)..then buy a smaller unit,,there are some great deals available......did you read the post and contact the ORVDA????

IF you would get it weighed as suggested and then post the weights within the next week or so, I will (and I am sure many others) will do our best to help you figure it out.........

OntMont · 10-16-2008, 01:00 PM

The RGW is the maximum combined weight of your fully loaded truck and trailer. Depending on your models and how you load, you are probably going to be looking at something around 10.000 kg, and a cost of around $350.

A class D license is no help at all, because it is still limited to a trailer weight of 4600 kg.

My doctor will at least give me the required medical form at no additional charge because I get an annual medical from him anyway and if you are over 65, OHIP pays for that. Nevertheless, it is a big pain to have to go through the whole test process every year. I thought that I had read somewhere that for a "Restricted" A license, they are only supposed to test you on the components of the test that apply to your rig.

It is a really frustrating situation. I wish I knew more about exactly what the ORVDA is negotiating on our behalf. Maybe more owners need to start getting involved.

Wiarton William · 10-17-2008, 02:43 AM

Morning Ontmont,,,,I lost my head while answering him in regards to the "D" licence...my thoughts were that he has a heavy TV and RV..if he could get under the 4600Kg his Gross combined weight may be too high...and a "D" would be required.....didnt put too much think into that thought...I posted the ORVDA Ph#..he is very receptive to speaking to folks that call...

berridge · 10-19-2008, 03:02 PM

John that's a good idea re getting MOT medical done along with the regular one. I will sound my doctor out if I have to get one. Don I do have a CAT scale document with the trailer loaded and attached. The trailer axles total 4245kg so I am under the magic 4600kg. The truck with the trailer attached weighs 4400kg. I plan to visit the friendly folks at the MOT and up the RGW on the truck to the 4400kg level. Obviously the dealers register the new trucks with no load. My total weight is 8636kg. If this is the weight they want to use for the RGW I may not be able to afford to keep the rig on the road! I did have a chat with Larry at the ORVDA office at the trailer show on Friday. He said that they are meeting with the MOT people on Thursday and are pushing for an exemption for RVers at least for rigs under 26000lbs as per several of the states in the USA. He is aware of the lack of a fair test for RVers who must try for a licence upgrade and the high cost involved. He of course could not say if or when any changes would be made. They have been meeting for three years! So the saga continues.

Wiarton William · 10-20-2008, 12:53 AM

I am glad that I was able to help you... I have only spoken to Larry Boyd twice and he was a pleasure to deal with...I have a 2004 F350 SD and increased the RGW to 4500Kg (its been 3000 Kg since I bought it).......it just cost me $139.00 to register for the year...... my gross combined weight is 8500Kg...... and as I said... my RGW is 4500 kg.......It looks like the way the MTO implies that you licence the truck is to licence it for the combined weight.......in my case 8500Kg...and I am short by 4000Kg.. IF the trailer is licenced by itself and there is no RGW or classification or weight designation for it.....its a RV/trailer and the licence is $??? (dont recall but its cheap and its for the life of the unit)...and my truck is licenced $74.00 for the year at 3000Kg.......I increased the RGW of the truck to 4500 Kg to legalize the load on my truck of the RV's PIN weight which is Approx 1200kg......I am as legal as can be....when you go to the MTO do not confuse them..most have no idea what to do...licence your truck to carry the pin weight of the RV.if they ask the weight tell them the weight of the RV axles while attached to the truck...you can only go to 4500Kg before you get into another mess with the CVOR etc etc...

On edit............I would add and respond to those that will have issue with the above............IF the RV was a Travel Trailer and the weights were relatively the same......AND you towed this TT with a Chrysler/GM/Ford motor car..........do you need an "A" licence..NO...would the subject ever come up at the MTO...NO.....do you need to increase the licence fees or worry about RGW/CVOR or scales.. NO.... you have a truck and you licence it to carry the load that is placed upon it...considering everything else is within the guidelines... you are legal...

OntMont · 01-16-2009, 11:40 AM

Mainly for Ontario-based members:

While visiting the Toronto RV show today, I made a point to track down a few people who I know have been involved with the MTO in negotiations over trailer weight limits. They all gave me pretty much the same story. Negotiations are still in progress but the MTO does not see it as a high priority issue, and does not put much in the way of resources into proceeding with any changes. They all say that the enforcement authorities have been told to back off on enforcing the axle weight rules on RVs that are otherwise not causing any trouble. You can make what your like of that, but I don't expect to be lining up for a Class A license any time soon.

Bill and Ann · 01-17-2009, 12:56 AM

Same here John.

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