KEYSTONE STIKES AGAIN

[Nelsen55]

Keystone has faced Chapter 11/13 in the past. It was Thor who came to their rescue and saved Keystone from going down the tubes. It's a shame that Thor doesn't keep an eye on their business units and make sure they are treating their customers correctly. Thanks to Irlpguy, you stated my stance and feelings better than I have. My Montana has suffered numerous problems that I have just taken care of myself because of the frustration of dealing with Keystone. Besides, when I fix things, I know how it was fixed and I am not wondering when what the dealer fixed will break again.

[richfaa]

Keystone needs to know of all of the problems we have and fix ourselves. They need to know of every problem we have. It just takes a phone call and a E mail. the list I posted above was a E mail and it is on file and it did get a call back from Keystone. I don't know if anything will come of it but they do know.

[Irlpguy]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Keystone needs to know of all of the problems we have and fix ourselves. They need to know of every problem we have. It just takes a phone call and a E mail. the list I posted above was a E mail and it is on file and it did get a call back from Keystone. I don't know if anything will come of it but they do know.

Rich we each choose to deal with the problems we encounter with our Montana's in different ways, you feel we are obliged to report "all" problems to Keystone so they can identify them and rectify them. I am sorry but I did not buy a prototype at a reduced price, I did not sign up as a product tester obliged to report to Keystone.

You are not naive enough to think that Keystone is not aware of the vast majority of these problems. Also where does the dealer responsibility enter into the equation. These units should be checked over from top to bottom to find obvious problems and fix them before they pass that responsibility onto the customer. Quality control costs money, not only for the manufacturer but also to the dealer who is selling these units that is why we get what we get.

In no way am I suggesting that Keystone is the only manufacturer with this problem, they all have it. Overall quality very likely is as good or better in a Montana when compared to any other competitively priced product, that again is a matter of opinion, with that opinion not being worth much if one has only owned a Montana.

I have phoned Keystone, and my experience with the customer service was less than stellar. I have emailed them twice and have had no response to either email. I do not need that hassle, so I for one will do what is necessary to keep the Monty in good shape and condition and I will do it without the very lacking customer support and quality control of Keystone.

As Nelsen55 said I have fixed many issues, I know what was done to accomplish my repair and I know it will not reappear down the road. That kind of a guarantee you won't get from most dealer service centers.

[richfaa]

We completely disagree on that subject but I understand your position. If we do not do something nothing will be done to correct the issues. Keystone does respond to customer issues and they do use MOC members as a test bed and as feed back for issues. IMO it is counter productive to NOT inform them of our problems. yes I do repair my own issues if I can or have them repaired but I also report them to Keystone. We did get a response to the list I posted here and most all of that list was on record under my VIN.

We will deliver the 3402 to our dealer for repair of the two failed holding tanks under G.S warranty. I expect nothing from Keystone and if we can afford it all other repairs will be at our expense. If not our Rv'ing days are over.

we have called the service center to many times with a problem only to hear "we never heard of that" when it is all over this forum. That is the problem .It is all over this forum but not reported to customer service.

[DQDick]

I agree, I think keeping Keystone informed of what's happening in the field can only help. Can't think of a reason it would hurt anything even if they ignore us.

[Irlpguy]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

We completely disagree on that subject but I understand your position. If we do not do something nothing will be done to correct the issues. Keystone does respond to customer issues and they do use MOC members as a test bed and as feed back for issues. IMO it is counter productive to NOT inform them of our problems. yes I do repair my own issues if I can or have them repaired but I also report them to Keystone. We did get a response to the list I posted here and most all of that list was on record under my VIN.

It is good that we can disagree with another one's opinion and remain civil, being in disagreement does not make me wrong nor yourself, we have these opinions based on our experiences and everyone is entitled to individual opinions and to agree or disagree.


We will deliver the 3402 to our dealer for repair of the two failed holding tanks under G.S warranty. I expect nothing from Keystone and if we can afford it all other repairs will be at our expense. If not our Rv'ing days are over.

I think your expectation from Keystone is certainly that by being informed over and over again of the same problems they will eventually do something about those problems. It is about quality control and bottom line, if QC affects bottom line then it will not be priority on the assembly line. Some if not many of the problems you have reported to Keystone are ongoing, they have been mentioned here over and over and brought to their attention at the rallies, that appears to not have influenced how they do business.

we have called the service center to many times with a problem only to hear "we never heard of that" when it is all over this forum. That is the problem .It is all over this forum but not reported to customer service.

The statement "we never heard of that" is not unique to Keystone, you hear that from most manufacturers that are not truly committed to improvement and customer service. Would you really expect that representative to say, "yes we are aware this problem has existed for years and we are working hard at solving it".

You have commented many times that Keystone reads and responds to postings on this forum in attempts at improving their product, if that were true then action would be taken to improve any ongoing problem, I don't see that happening. Again this is not a problem unique to Keystone as other manufacturers have forums as well, how much attention they pay to theirs is likely the same as Keystone, very little...

[CORattler]

Interesting opinions and information.
It is incomprehensible to me how these companies aspire to survive and even prosper by ignoring their customers. Is business really that good that they can afford to do that??
Honesty, integrity and pride in product seem to be secondary to profit margin. While this mindset may work in the short term, it is a fatal philosophy and the piper WILL be paid.... mark my words.

[CORattler]

Interesting opinions and information.
It is incomprehensible to me how these companies aspire to survive and even prosper by ignoring their customers. Is business really that good that they can afford to do that??
Honesty, integrity and pride in product seem to be secondary to profit margin. While this mindset may work in the short term, it is a fatal philosophy and the piper WILL be paid.... mark my words.

[richfaa]

I have got to keep on doing what I do. We purchased the top of the line, best you can buy Montana product. We did not get it. I have got to let them know..

[bethandkevin]

I personally don't believe that there is much attention paid to a tally of the number of a particular failure or repair unless it proves too costly to repair it. The loose roof staple issue alone should illustrate that. It has been discussed here for at least two years. Several owners have had issue with it, had repairs made for it and still the same issue persists in current year models. A simple ten minute staff meeting before shift could take care of it, or better yet, a change to a different fastening system(screws maybe), would correct the issue. Yet here it rears it's ugly head again. Want Keystone to listen? Suggest something that MAKES them money. What got the most attention at the Rally? Things that people WANT, not what people complain about.

I'd still buy a Montana.

JMO

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by bethandkevin

I personally don't believe that there is much attention paid to a tally of the number of a particular failure or repair unless it proves too costly to repair it.

JMO

Right from the office of the head of customer service Mr. Holms “we don’t cross that information.”

Phil P

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

Just what I heard from one of the management team, they do know what repairs have the most incidents. They may never admit same to us as customers, that repair "A" has 1000 repairs, or some such. I don't believe this management person was fibbing to me, what I understood is that they know what things are going wrong on these rigs, by numbers.

Whether they address them, or it trickles down to the production line, I won't even try to address.

Obviously there are things that CountryGuy and I have seen over the years that keep reoccurring. Even if we had the funds to buy a new rig tomorrow, I am not sure we would. Some of this stuff is junk we just have NO interest in dealing with at this point in our lives.

The holding tank issue is a huge one, something we just do not want to deal with. We have the original holding tanks on our 2004, and no repairs have ever been made to the plumbing to the tanks (KNOCK ON WOODEN GRAY MATTER! ).

Prove to me they are strapping them in on the manufacturing line and I will revisit. Pretty much that is a deal killer for us. Really. That is how serious we feel about it. We have mentioned this to management on several occasions. Seeing that they still do not strap, makes me wonder about a lot of things.

I will not profess to understand how they can know the issues, listen to our complaints year after year and yet, do nothing to address the issues.

It's a complicated business, I get it. They make running changes at Keystone, I get it. I do NOT get why we see so many issues repeated time after time after time.

Tana will get fixed and run down the road for quite a while yet. Just not willing to deal with these issues and dealers and warranties. ICK.

[DQDick]

Well stated.

[richfaa]

It is not a Keystone only issue. Read any other manufacturers forum or any other Rv forum. Build quality is a industry wide problem and goes on year after year. Perhaps I am wrong but I do not think that we as consumers are doing enough to let the manufacturers know how we feel about it.

I will continue to let Keystone know of every problem we have with our Montana. I think that if we all did it would make a difference. It is all that I can do.

I will say it again ..Our Montana's have been our magic carpet and have taken us on our great adventure. We do not Montana bash. We do state fact. If stating that our Montana has had over 30 problems in 22 months is Montana bashing.....well then.....
we go to the dealer in the Morning. We hope for the best. We have places to go...things to see.

[Nelsen55]

US industries have lost their commitment to customer service and producing a quality product. While the Boardroom talks a good game, the underlings play a totally different game. I understand that a company cannot fix every little thing that goes wrong with their product, but fixing a few of the major problems their customer's have goes along way in good public relations. I work in General Aviation, PILOT'S TALK in lounges while waiting for their passengers. Campers talk to in camp grounds and at rallies. We have all heard horror stories while camping. These stories we hear have an influence on the products we purchase.

By assisting their customers and incorporating changes to the manufacturing of their product, Keystone's sales and reputation will take care of themselves. But that is what happens when bean counters get their hands on a company, the only thing that counts is the bottom line and it had better be BLACK!

It has been over ten days since DQDick sent me a PM with the email address of a Manager at Keystone. I emailed my VIN # and phone number to this individual with no response, not even an acknowledgment that he received my original email.

[Nelsen55]

First off, a big THANK YOU!! goes out to DQDick for putting our problem in front of his contact at Keystone. The gentleman I sent my contact info to returned my email and promised someone from Keystone would be in contact with me, this was Monday. Another gentleman from Keystone contacted me on Monday and after 3 days and the exchange of several emails and the forwarding of new pictures of our roof and door, Keystone has agreed to take care of the repair to our roof and replace our main entry door at their expense. My wife and I are extremely happy about this and want to thank Keystone for stepping up and taking care of our problems even though out RV is out of warranty. Once again, Thank You!

I do have some reservations regarding Flint Hills RV though. They told me via email that our problems with the roof and the door had been reviewed and rejected by Keystone. The gentleman at Keystone informed me that Keystone had no record of rejecting our request nor did they have any pictures of our roof. HMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

[richfaa]

That is good thing Jim. If you bring these things to keystones attention and work with them they just may help you out.Don't tell them of issues and nothing will happen. Re out two leaking tanks .Dealer reports the galley tank has a crack at the bottom and the Gray tank has cracked at the top. Awaiting word from the Extended warranty repair of replace. Pictures are being sent to keystone as they requested. They may help they may not but they are aware and interested in our issues.

[richfaa]

Another update. Good Sam ESP will cover the replacement of both the leaking tanks less my 200.00 deductible. The tanks will ship from Goshen and that may take some time. The rest of our issues will be repaired by the dealer at 90.00 per hour labor and any parts.

We may get out of there for around 1000.00 of my $$$$. Hope that Keystone will help some but expect nothing. Pictures and all problems are reported to Keystone.

[richfaa]

This is week number 3 of the Big Sky being at the dealers for repair. They are keeping us informed and have called three times to give updates and ask questions. We are waiting for the two holding tanks to be delivered. Last time we had holding tanks fail we went to a repair facility in Goshen and I just went to the tank vendor in Goshen and picked up the tanks.

We will not be able to make the N.E rally as the dead line is past for reservations and there in no telling when we will get the Montana back.

[richfaa]

Still no Montana. waiting for new tanks and installation. We have already missed two local campouts and the memorial day campout. We have missed the deadline for the N.E MOC rally and last minute attendance is doubtful.

However we do not care .We are getting accustomed to not having the Montana and saving $$$ . We figure the dealer cost will be about 1,000K with the 200.00 deductible on our Extended warranty and at 90.00 per hour and parts for the items we need repaired. we have already not spent over 300.00 on fuel and campground fees. Final decision to keep or not keep is still down the road a bit