Weights - Montana Owners Club

MAMalody · 07-24-2006, 03:45 PM

I finally got weighed. It only took three years...well the scale is over one mile away:>)

Anyway I was weighed on a three pad scale and was not allowed any disconnects. Let me give you that data I have and then (since I can't find my cheat sheet in my computer or the internet) will you gurus please tell me what this means?

F350 7.3L Auto SRW
GVWR 9900
Front GAWR 5200
Rear GAWR 6830

3575RL
GVWR 14040
Front GAWR 6000
Rear GAWR 6000

CAT Scale Ticket
Steer Axle 4520
Drive Axle 5700
Trailer Axle 9880
Total Weight 20100

I was returning from a trip and had everything I normally do except my wife. I was four gallons short of full, had about 15-20 gallons of water (about normal for me), full propane and empty holding tanks.

Thanks for the help and the education.

Fordzilla · 07-24-2006, 10:44 PM

Looks like you are pretty close. You may want to transfer a little weight from the front of the Monty to the rear as you are over the 9900 GVWR of the SRW F350. Not bad though 10220 is only over 320 lbs. Then add the wife(150lbs) and you start getting to where you may want to look at moving some things around inside the trailer to lower the pin weight on the truck a little. When you have time it would help to have the truck weighed with near similar conditions as you had it this time. Same amount of fuel in truck and whatever tools and other stuff in the box as you did when returning home. Then we would have a actual pin weight to make sure it isn't already too light. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are supposed to stay around 17-20% of the trailers total weight for the pin.

OntMont · 07-25-2006, 03:06 AM

I make it the same as Fordzilla. You did not quote the GCWR for your truck, but you should check the total weight against that figure.

The scales I have used, one Cat and one Flying J, will allow you a "reweigh" for an extra dollar.
In that situation you can weigh as you did, then drop the trailer legs to take the weight off the truck, then call in and ask for a reweigh. That way you get the combination weights, and the individual vehicle weights. Make sure you are positioned right on the scale to do this. I usually try to pick a quiet time, and tell the scale operator/cashier what I am planning to do.
(Credit to "Bill & Ann" for teaching me this trick)

MAMalody · 07-25-2006, 07:54 AM

I was told they would not allow a disconnect. Maybe I will just drive my TV out there, after all I know how far away the scale is now, and get the TV weight alone so we can figure the pin weight. Since I can't find my cheat sheet, what is the formula to determine PIN weight?

It is interesting to note that on the way home from dinner last night my wife said, "I think we should look into getting a F550. I wonder how much it would cost."

I replied, "Do you really think so? I will have to look into that or maybe the F450." I was real cool about it...looks like there could be a new truck in the future...after all my wife brought it up:>)

Broome101 · 07-25-2006, 01:02 PM

See there is always a way to skin a cat to get a new truck. Honey the Monty is too heavy for our truck, lets look at others. I like that train of thought.
Kinda used the same thinking process when saw Steve Rigel's new 05 F250 got me looking at the new Fords..

Fire5er · 10-04-2006, 11:31 AM

MAMalody,

Did you ever get your truck weight??? We have the same truck and mine came in around 7700lbs.

Karl

Cat320 · 10-04-2006, 02:27 PM

- To find the PW, weigh the truck exactly as you did before only without the trailer. Subtract that weight from the previous TVs combined axle weights of 10,200...difference equals PW.

- GM says PW should be between 15% and 25%.

- IMHO, I would not move weight aft in the RV to attempt to lighten the PW, unless the PW was much too heavy. Moving weight aft serves to enhance the possibility of the tail wagging the dog...a loss of lateral stability in the back of the TV. These things are way too long to chance, even remotely, the possibility of that happening.

Mrs. CountryGuy · 10-04-2006, 03:58 PM

Cat320,

Have you actually ever felt your 5er "wag the tail of the dog???"

Gotta say, the times I have driven and all the times I have been in the passenger seat, I have never felt our Tana do that. We have had it loaded heavy for long timing and lighter for the rest of the year. We have driven it in 40 MPH side winds, and only when a strong gust (probably 45 to 50 MPH) hit us full sideways, did we ever feel even so much as a wiggle of the tail of the dog. And after driving and pulling our 30 foot TT for almost 15 years, that little 5er wiggle was nothing in comparison. That TT had a lot of waggin of the dog tail, white knuckles were the norm when an 18 wheeler passed up and sucked up the back end of that TT. Never felt it with the 5er.

Maybe it is the way we load Tana, although other than NOT putting all the heavy canned goods in one place, nor all my books in one cupboard, I really don't pay much attention to the way I load er. Sorta go by the rule, if it fits in that cupboard, well, put it there, abiding by 2 rules, not a lot of heavy stuff all in one concentrated area, and if possible the really heavy stuff goes closer to the floor.

So, are you just being a bit cautious (a GOOD THING!) or have you really felt dog tail waggin with your Montana?? I am really curious bout this. (that said, remember we have the 3295, with really heavy pin weight, that is my disclaimer of the day!

)

Carol

Cat320 · 10-05-2006, 07:39 AM

Carol,

Nope, no tail wagging the dog with this rig, but look at my TV. Based on my TV, I do not anticipate any problems...that's one reason I got this truck. However, I have towed a big 5er with a SRW F350...not a pleasant experience in the crosswinds of OK and KS. You do not say what your PW is or what your TV is...that makes a big difference. The problem to which I was referring is where a TV is over weight (too much PW) and the driver is attempting to reduce PW by loading up the back of the trailer.

sreigle · 10-05-2006, 12:03 PM

GCWR on my '99 and '03 F350 SRW were both 20,000. Yours is probably the same, so that's just 100 lbs over.

Mike, if you tell them you will move off the scale, disconnect, and come back for a 'reweigh' usually they'll hold the ticket and give you both. There's an extra charge for the reweigh but a lot less than getting two separate tickets. It's not expensive either way. While you're a little over, it's not enough that I would worry about it. I'm over more than that.

Mrs. CountryGuy · 10-05-2006, 01:49 PM

Cat320

Thanks for that feedback. I appreciate it.

For our rig and truck stats, go look up CountryGuy. I have not done a sig line, I am trying to finish a book for the genie club and have not taken the time to fuss with my sig line since I signed on with my own ID. (We have the 3295, and we have a GMC 2003 with duels on the back end.)

I do note with interest your comments about a single rear wheel and a big 5er and cross winds. Thanks again for the data.

Carol

sreigle · 10-08-2006, 08:23 AM

Having lived in Kansas for most of my life I am very familiar with the crosswinds described by Cat320. I agree having too little pinweight or too much pinweight can make the situation worse. As I understand it, keeping pinweight between 20% and 25% of the trailer total weight pretty much eliminates that problem. With our 3295RK's 3300 pinweight we were at 22% and it was a very stable tow. With this 3400RL our 2860 pinweight is just 19.6% of the total but after just 1400 miles of towing, including some nasty crosswinds and headwinds, it doesn't seem to be a problem. I think, based on seat of the pants, the extra pinweight of the 3295 actually aided stability of the truck and rig as a whole. However, the 3400 tows beautifully, too.

rickfox · 10-08-2006, 08:44 AM

For what it's worth, the empty pin weight of the 3400 is around 16.5% or 17% of total weight.

Since Montana sells the product that way, I believe Montana is thinking that the product is "safe" to tow that way. If it weren't, sooner or later they would be looking down the barrels of a number of law suits.

Pushing the pin weight up to a limit of say 25% does not necessarily make it more safe, any more than pushing the speed up to 75 MPH (if the limit is 75 MPH) is any more safe than staying at 60 MPH. Especially, if pushing up the pin weight causes some other loading or safety specification to be exceeded.

Just my opinion, but all that being said, I believe it is perfectly reasonable to manage weight distribution to ensure or reduce TV overloading and yet stay within the 15% to 25% pin weigh figure.

If reducing the pin weight is a bad thing, then us 3400 owners should certainly never carry water in our fresh water tanks.

Cat320 · 10-08-2006, 11:18 AM

Rick...you've been reading Keystone's propaganda in the form of their spec sheets.

The 2006 spec sheet states the empty pw is 1975. That is 17% of the shipping/empty weight (11650), not the GVWR. When you do the numbers, 1975 is 14.1% of the GVWR.

As I have said before, Keystone is in the business of selling RVs. They do that by letting people think that all can be pulled, within all limits, with all 3/4 and one ton trucks. Which we all know is not true. That's one reason the axles are only rated for 6000. If they rated them for 7000, the cat would be out of the bag...you're looking at 14k on the trailer and 3000 in the truck...dually country. They's lose lots of business.

Regarding the legal issues. I have reviewed the owner's manual thoroughly (it's rather worthless), and all weight issues addressed concern trailer weights. I'm sure Keystone's high priced lawyers have words or clauses in there, or somewhere, stating the owner is responsible for tv issues. One reason I got the dually was a concern about legal issues if in an at fault accident and over weight.

noneck · 10-08-2006, 03:53 PM

Ok, This is my method at comparison and analysis of trailer, truck, and pin weight. The prior trailer was an 89 Terry pulled by a Chev. Ext. Cab 1/2 Ton Pickup...way more trailer than Truck should tow. Current setup is much better match and my driving is less stressful. Excel table below shows...current truck (F250) and how the load changed from the Terry to the Monty. Only issue I have to date is the darn highway hop when on cement slab roads...forces me to modulate my speed up/down to counter the bounce and often forces me to slow way down...

Wrenchtraveller · 10-09-2006, 02:54 AM

If your hitch is set up so that your pin is slightly ahead of your rear axle ( 2" in my case )
then your front axle will actually get a little weight put on it, if I remember right , my front axle gets another 80 pounds on it.

For your front axle to become lighter, your pin is slightly behind your rear axle's centre.

For the best handling, the pin must be right over centre or up to 3" towards the front of the truck and all good hitch installers will make sure this is so.

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