Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > General Discussions about our Montanas
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-27-2020, 05:34 PM   #1
Vet4jdc
Montana Fan
 
Vet4jdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 281
M.O.C. #23051
Fire Hazard

We made our maiden voyage for 2020 over Memorial Day weekend. Frustrating trip as I have a couple of things to fix since our return home. One of our roller shades had the bottom strip pull off. I already have the "fix" for that thanks to the MOC on facebook. A piece of trim above the passenger slide has popped loose and will require a few nails.

Most of my frustration is because of the discovery I made when we lost one leg of our 50 amp service. I took the male plug out of the fiver and took it apart to discover a poor connection, melted plastic, charred wood in the wall and what appears to be a near fire. This poor workmanship could have caused our unit to burn up if it had caught the wood on fire and spread through the rig. Scared the crap out of me when I found it. All because the person who assembled the wire to the plug left one "hot" leg short and made a bad connection at the plug.

I lucked out and found a male connection plug at a NAPA store about 5 miles up the road. Cost........$141.00. Cut all wires the same length, stripped them back and installed them properly. Re-assembled and we were good to go. I wish Keystone customer service saw this post and how close we were to having a real fire.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9908.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	132.6 KB
ID:	6412

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1615 (1).jpg
Views:	52
Size:	212.1 KB
ID:	6413
 
__________________
2019 Montana High Country 331RL
2017 Ford F250 Super Duty, 6.7 PSD
Vet4jdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 05:46 PM   #2
mlh
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salem
Posts: 7,528
M.O.C. #2283
Sorry but not surprised!
No matter how hard you may try you just can’t find everything that could be a problem with these campers. Even if the factory tried they couldn’t built campers without problems, human nature. We all make mistakes.
Lynwood
__________________
www.harrellsprec.com
Lynwood Harrell
323 RL HC 2008 F250
mlh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 06:10 PM   #3
JABURKHOLDER
Montana Master
 
JABURKHOLDER's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Cuyahoga Falls
Posts: 699
M.O.C. #18572
Assuming your rig is still under warranty, take your photos and receipts for your parts to your dealer for a possible refund. Couldn't hurt to try.
__________________
ATC/NAC Jerry A. Burkholder, USN (RET.)

Rule #1. The Chief is always right.
Rule #2. When in doubt, refer to rule #1.
JABURKHOLDER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 06:59 PM   #4
Vet4jdc
Montana Fan
 
Vet4jdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 281
M.O.C. #23051
Quote:
Originally Posted by JABURKHOLDER View Post
Assuming your rig is still under warranty, take your photos and receipts for your parts to your dealer for a possible refund. Couldn't hurt to try.
We are 4 months out of warranty.
__________________
2019 Montana High Country 331RL
2017 Ford F250 Super Duty, 6.7 PSD
Vet4jdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 07:18 PM   #5
dfb
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Gardnerville
Posts: 1,250
M.O.C. #17163
Welcome to cheap no pride employees and their dont care companies..
dfb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2020, 07:36 AM   #6
DmaxDually
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Port Richey
Posts: 438
M.O.C. #14092
These are not mistakes....These are employees who don't care, who are either unskilled or have no pride in their work and are just waiting for the end of the work day to go home. Do you think any of them would have the pride/courage to admit they made a mistake and stop the production line to fix it? If an employee strips a lug on a power center/converter or damages it during install that they will admit to it and go get a new one and replace it??..NO.

If after installing cabinets the employee find that they cracked the wood installing the mounting screws, the cabinets are not level or some other mistake that would require removing and replacing the damaged parts or cabinets to fix. Do you think that the employee would admit to it and fix it the right way?...NO. They just cover it up and move on. Especially if it's in a hidden area. It's the customer or dealers problem now.

There seems to be no quality control at Keystone during the assembly stages. Sure they might have a quality control check at the end when it comes off the assembly line but that is just to make sure the systems work and cover up and hide any oblivious visible mistakes that a blind person would see.
But don't worry..You will come across a lot more as you work on or mod your RV like me and every other MOC member.


A permanent sticky picture thread should be started where owners can post pictures of the poor quality control and screw ups they find. This way it will all be posted in one place and it will be easy for Keystone to find. If Keystone really cared this would give them the perfect chance for them to assign someone in the QC dept. who's only job is to check the thread on a daily basis so Keystone can:

1. Show the employee or dept. who assembled it and screwed up.

2. Make them aware of it and answer for it. If they do it again the cost of the
repair will come out of their pay check.

3. Instead of Keystone just talking about it's quality it would give Keystone the
perfect opportunity to prove to it's customers that it stands behind their
products by allowing them to personally and directly reach out to their
customers to either fix it, replace it or do what ever it takes to make it right.
Instead of making the customer, who just spent tens of thousands of dollars
buying a Keystone RV, go back and forth arguing with the dealer who is
blaming Keystone for not covering the repair.

Imagine the opportunity this could give Keystone's marketing and customer service to jump way ahead of the competition if they did the right thing.
It could also be devastating to them if they did the wrong thing.
__________________
2012 Silverado 3500HD|4x4|Crew Cab|long bed|Dually
2012 Montana 3750FL
DmaxDually is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2020, 08:13 AM   #7
mlh
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salem
Posts: 7,528
M.O.C. #2283
You can not take the cost of repair out of an employees pay check. Federal law will not allow that. You can fire them but then you haft to find a replacement and pretend you train them.
Lynwood
__________________
www.harrellsprec.com
Lynwood Harrell
323 RL HC 2008 F250
mlh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2020, 08:35 AM   #8
DmaxDually
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Port Richey
Posts: 438
M.O.C. #14092
Yes but the only federal rule is that deductions can’t reduce your pay below minimum wage. This rule applies regardless of what state you live in. Many states do provide extra protection for employees who make mistakes but not all. Some states like FL. allow it:
Florida:
Florida has no state law on deductions, meaning employers can generally charge you for mistakes as long as they don't reduce your pay below minimum wage.
__________________
2012 Silverado 3500HD|4x4|Crew Cab|long bed|Dually
2012 Montana 3750FL
DmaxDually is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2020, 05:16 AM   #9
Vet4jdc
Montana Fan
 
Vet4jdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 281
M.O.C. #23051
Quote:
Originally Posted by DmaxDually View Post
These are not mistakes....These are employees who don't care, who are either unskilled or have no pride in their work and are just waiting for the end of the work day to go home. Do you think any of them would have the pride/courage to admit they made a mistake and stop the production line to fix it? If an employee strips a lug on a power center/converter or damages it during install that they will admit to it and go get a new one and replace it??..NO.

If after installing cabinets the employee find that they cracked the wood installing the mounting screws, the cabinets are not level or some other mistake that would require removing and replacing the damaged parts or cabinets to fix. Do you think that the employee would admit to it and fix it the right way?...NO. They just cover it up and move on. Especially if it's in a hidden area. It's the customer or dealers problem now.

There seems to be no quality control at Keystone during the assembly stages. Sure they might have a quality control check at the end when it comes off the assembly line but that is just to make sure the systems work and cover up and hide any oblivious visible mistakes that a blind person would see.
But don't worry..You will come across a lot more as you work on or mod your RV like me and every other MOC member.


A permanent sticky picture thread should be started where owners can post pictures of the poor quality control and screw ups they find. This way it will all be posted in one place and it will be easy for Keystone to find. If Keystone really cared this would give them the perfect chance for them to assign someone in the QC dept. who's only job is to check the thread on a daily basis so Keystone can:

1. Show the employee or dept. who assembled it and screwed up.

2. Make them aware of it and answer for it. If they do it again the cost of the
repair will come out of their pay check.

3. Instead of Keystone just talking about it's quality it would give Keystone the
perfect opportunity to prove to it's customers that it stands behind their
products by allowing them to personally and directly reach out to their
customers to either fix it, replace it or do what ever it takes to make it right.
Instead of making the customer, who just spent tens of thousands of dollars
buying a Keystone RV, go back and forth arguing with the dealer who is
blaming Keystone for not covering the repair.

Imagine the opportunity this could give Keystone's marketing and customer service to jump way ahead of the competition if they did the right thing.
It could also be devastating to them if they did the wrong thing.
I welcome this idea. Have the MOC admin start the sticky and let's fill it with poor quality documents. Then invite Keystone customer service to monitor (if they really care?)
__________________
2019 Montana High Country 331RL
2017 Ford F250 Super Duty, 6.7 PSD
Vet4jdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2020, 05:17 AM   #10
Vet4jdc
Montana Fan
 
Vet4jdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 281
M.O.C. #23051
Speaking of customer service. Can someone give me an email address for Customer Service at Keystone?
__________________
2019 Montana High Country 331RL
2017 Ford F250 Super Duty, 6.7 PSD
Vet4jdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2020, 08:23 AM   #11
DmaxDually
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Port Richey
Posts: 438
M.O.C. #14092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vet4jdc View Post
I welcome this idea. Have the MOC admin start the sticky and let's fill it with poor quality documents. Then invite Keystone customer service to monitor (if they really care?)
Yes, but they have to be legitimate build issues on new units ( like yours) or units that are 1 or 2 years old. Issues that could have only been done during assembly at the factory, accompanied by photos. Issues where the employee's cut corners or made a mistake and tried to hide it or didn't bother to correct it. Issues like vet4jdc posted that could have caused a fire or if your cabinets are loose and pulling off the wall because the employee didn't barther put all the mounting screws in.

If the thread get filled minor issues, issues that happened 3 or 4+ years later, nit picky or 3rd party issues that are no fault of Keystone. Like from normal wear and tear. Post like my cabinet knobs got loose, appliances, that Keystone buys from 3rd party manufacturers, that stop working that are not QC manufacturing issues or if the thread gets filled with complaints, suggestion, small issues that are easily fixed by the owner or taken care of by the dealer it will lose its purpose and be ignored..
__________________
2012 Silverado 3500HD|4x4|Crew Cab|long bed|Dually
2012 Montana 3750FL
DmaxDually is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2020, 09:00 AM   #12
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
All we can do is expose the problems and share with each other what we find. Hopefully buyers read our posts and make buying decisions accordingly.

Keystone has little to no interest in this arena. There is no money in it. I have challenged them on quality control matters, even offering my services, to no avail. The issue is management, not so much assemblers. I taught prison inmates manufacturing for years and the products were top notch quality. Unfortunately it will take a liability suit over a terrible situation before they wake up.
__________________
2016 3160, Legacy, Sailuns, Splendide 2100 xc vented, 1 1/2" axle lift blocks, disk brakes. 2014 Ram 3500 SRW SWB 4X4 6.7 Aisin Mega Cab, EBC slotted disks and brakes, Titan fuel tank.
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2020, 09:33 AM   #13
DmaxDually
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Port Richey
Posts: 438
M.O.C. #14092
"I taught prison inmates manufacturing for years and the products were top notch quality".

That's because inmates have no outside life distractions. All they have to do all day is make the product and go back to their cells. They don't think about throwing things together so they can go home early on their Friday. They're not doing what ever it takes to finish so they can get beers after work.
I could be wrong but I bet the products they make are checked and there are consequences for shoddy work in prison. In the outside world companies have HR depts and lawyers that get involved if the boss so much as looks at an employee the wrong way.
Maybe inmates should start making RV so the other RV manufactures will be forced to up their quality. Just like what happened to the US auto manufactures in the 70's when Honda and other foreign cars started to be imported. US manufactures were forced to start concentrating on producing quality cars to compete with Honda's quality...
__________________
2012 Silverado 3500HD|4x4|Crew Cab|long bed|Dually
2012 Montana 3750FL
DmaxDually is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2020, 11:08 AM   #14
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
Inmates do have distractions, like difficult living pressures to deal with. The good part is having a worker with few skills and teaching them how to do a good job. The same applies to staff. It does require processes which includes proper training and a robust quality control, which Keystone falls short. At least with many of the finer details.

I agree with the auto makers analogy. Unfortunately there isn't foreign competition to set us straight since we are not doing it right on our own. Now, if someone like Honda started RV manufacturing in the states... That would fix it.
__________________
2016 3160, Legacy, Sailuns, Splendide 2100 xc vented, 1 1/2" axle lift blocks, disk brakes. 2014 Ram 3500 SRW SWB 4X4 6.7 Aisin Mega Cab, EBC slotted disks and brakes, Titan fuel tank.
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2020, 01:08 PM   #15
DmaxDually
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Port Richey
Posts: 438
M.O.C. #14092
Yes I agree..Competition brings better customer service, quality and price...
__________________
2012 Silverado 3500HD|4x4|Crew Cab|long bed|Dually
2012 Montana 3750FL
DmaxDually is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2020, 04:01 PM   #16
bleedmichigan
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Columbia
Posts: 303
M.O.C. #23739
While I agree with a lot of the comments. Personally I always pull the plug out each year and check the lugs. It bounces around a lot and with the cycling of power heat and expansion then contraction seems like it’s easy enough preventative maintenance to remove the 4 screws pull the plug out and inspect it.
bleedmichigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 06:05 PM   #17
SteveandTerri
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Vacaville
Posts: 81
M.O.C. #22227
Electrical Socket - Improper Installation

I had the same thing happen to my rig. The electrical sockets are tricky to get right. In my case, one of the power leg wires was pushed too far into the socket such that a portion of the insulation was in the clamp (where it should just be copper). It led to arcing and loss of power on that leg.

I put together this post: https://www.montanaowners.com/forums...04#post1150704

Glad you found it!
__________________
Steve & Terri
2017 305RL Montana High Country
2017 F-250 CCSB Diesel Lariat FX4
SteveandTerri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 07:02 PM   #18
Patrickdoran
Established Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Fulton
Posts: 19
M.O.C. #26161
What symptoms were you seeing to suspect you lost a power leg?
Patrickdoran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 08:21 PM   #19
SteveandTerri
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Vacaville
Posts: 81
M.O.C. #22227
Hi - Here's a copy of my post from last year. It explains the way the electric system started to misbehave and how I figured out the problem... There are pictures on the posting (link noted above).

The wife and I have been on the road in Sisters, Oregon for the last 10 days. A few days ago - all of a sudden - the TV, Microwave Oven, and Fireplace stopped working. This was the second time this had happened. The first time everything came back ON after about 20 minutes. This time the appliances didn't come back ON.....

So, I thought maybe a breaker had tripped. Checked the 5ers panel: all breakers ON... but I opened and re-closed all of them anyhow - you never know... no change: appliances still OFF. Went to the power pedestal (operating on the 50 Amp Service) and checked the breaker: it was ON but I opened and re-closed it anyhow. Still no change: appliances still off.

Went back to the 5ers panel and stared at it for a while... noted that all of the appliances that were OFF were fed by breakers on the right side of the panel. Got out the Volt Meter and started troubleshooting. First checked the Power Pedestal: 120 volts on each leg. Then went to the 5ers panel: found 120 volts on one leg and 0 volts on the other leg.

So, if there's power at the pedestal and no power at the 5ers breaker panel, the problem has to be somewhere between the two... Figured the most likely spot would be the Shore Power Inlet. First checked power at the end of the power cord: 120 volts on each leg: all good. Then noticed evidence of burning at one of the power prongs inside the Inlet Socket (see picture)... not good.

At that point I knew I had to take the Shore Power Inlet Socket out and see what was going on. Found a set screw on one of the power leg wires wasn't tight. The prong that was connected to that wire had brownish discoloration indicating arcing in the area. Next step was to take the whole assembly apart: sure enough, found the plastic around the prong had started to melt. Finally determined the root cause: one of the power leg wires had been inserted too far: the plastic insulation was partially in the clamp.

Over time, the insulation had gotten warm, deformed, and the clamp-to-wire connection loosened up. Arcing then developed and the connection failed completely. Thank goodness it didn't lead to a fire. When the Power Inlet was first installed at the factory, the technician probably tightened the terminal clamp just like the others: nice and snug.
__________________
Steve & Terri
2017 305RL Montana High Country
2017 F-250 CCSB Diesel Lariat FX4
SteveandTerri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 01:11 PM   #20
steiny93
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: fargo
Posts: 185
M.O.C. #17461
We had the same experience

On our first Keystone Montana we had a loose neutral (at the fuse box) situation which caused a small fire which we caught (while grandmother in-law was napping in the 5th wheel). No work on the electrical system had ever been done so it was an issue which originated during manufacturing. We also were out of warranty. Insurance did cover the damage as their was an actual fire involved.

They had to replace quite a bit of cabinetary as well as the inverter / fuse box / etc.
steiny93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.