Am Iooking at this wrong??? - Montana Owners Club

dsprik · 06-24-2006, 03:18 PM

The following is off of the front of the new 2007 brochure... Am I reading too much into this, or is Montana starting to inch over the line? They would only print or say what their attorneys will allow them to. My inclination is that they are starting to attempt to cross over this threshold.

This definitely opens up appeal to a whole new sub-group of consumer RVer. Most of us just went ahead and bought one of these Montys for "four season living" at the experience and advice of fellow MOCers. There are others, however, who are looking specifically for THIS PHRASE in a company's description of their product before they even consider a 5th wheel for FTing. I know this is true because WE went through the different mfrs websites looking SPECIFICALLY for these words, when we first decided we were going FT.

I looked at Montana's 2006 literature closely, and I could not find this statement anywhere:

2007 Montana
The Montana product team is focused on providing every
customer with the best overall features, value and construction
making it the #1 selling fifth wheel for five consecutive years.*
We focus on all of the details so our customers can rest and
enjoy Montana's excellent product design in four critical areas
Residential styling, amenities, and four season living ability,
creates a home-away-from-home atmosphere like no other.
Excellent towability with better aerodynamics, suspension,
and weight distribution, insures that your drive is as
comfortable as your stay.
Superior construction to provide long lasting durability
means you'll enjoy your Montana for years to come.
Tremendous interior and exterior storage space adds the
crowning touch, adding convenience in every area of your
vacation home.
For many years, Montana customers have rested comfortably
knowing their Montana provides everything they need to enjoy
living the RV lifestyle to the fullest!

Check me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is an "attorney cleared" statement. Montana has not used this phrase in their previous literature anywhere that I can find. I have seen this statement in other brands (higher end).

They do not mention anything SPECIFICALLY about this being a FTing 5ver, so I don't think they are ready to legally (or structurally) claim this as FT certified unit, or anything like that, but this is definitely a welcome step in that direction.

The YELLOW phrases would be used to counter any claims that someone could make - like, "Well you said it was a full time 5th wheel in your literature...". Making the statement that this is a "Home-away-from-home atmosphere" and a "Vacation home" might have satisfied the attorneys as to someone mistakingly claiming that Montana is inferring that this could be 100% substituted for a "regular, year round home".

Disclaimer: This is strictly my SPECULATION on what I am reading, and my interpretation of these statements. I have been wrong before - maybe Keystone-Montana has used this term before, but I haven't seen it.

Anyway, this should be an interesting topic to speculate on.

Maybe someone could even call Keystone-Montana and get an explanation?

rickety · 06-24-2006, 04:28 PM

Attorney talk, legalese, ___covering? Call it what you will, that is exctly spot on D. My son who is very sucessfuol lawyer in Reno says that this type of speak is lawyer speak for "your ___ is covered so don't screw up by saying anything else, or I will make big bucks off of it!!!

adelmoll · 06-24-2006, 04:49 PM

I don't know what it means but it is one year ago today that we took off full timing in our Tana so we have been through four seasons. 30,000 miles later we are happy campers. Whatever you are doing Keystone, keep it up.

Helen

dsprik · 06-24-2006, 04:53 PM

Also, after going through the new brochure... is it my imagination? Or is the term "RESIDENTIAL" popping up all over the place. I gotta believe these are NOT just someone throwing words out on a paper at random. As Rick mentioned, Keystones attorneys would have a heart attack.

*On Edit~ I have been in the business world a little bit. I can tell you with a confidence, that each of these words are chosen carefully and for a specific marketing reason. Anyone want to bet they ran this through a building full of lawyers before the printed this brochure???

patodonn · 06-24-2006, 05:49 PM

Of course they did, and well they should have....in our socitey's legal-crazy climate, they would be insane not to "CYA" at every chance. Some of the greedier members of the legal profession have driven morality and personal responsibility out of the frame of reference for a large part of America. I just received a document today discussing the mediated settlement of a suit against a large US Corp. The lawyers are asking for a court directed award to them of 11.9 million...and no one has said "You've got to be kidding!!" They further said that those fees wouldn't hurt anyone involved in the suit, because the Insurers would pay it....somebody's pocket is getting picked in that deal, and the lawyers have their hands in up to their elbows. Plato was right....

All that being said, it doesn't change the philosophy of support Keystone has have demonstrated time and again. Lots of folks on this forum have bought the Montana because of this reputation. They can ill-afford to destroy it..

Best,

dsprik · 06-24-2006, 05:58 PM

This is great, because I really see Montan moving towards a FT unit. Not sure if they will try to make it a Cambridge-type, or just keep gradually improving the Montana line with new materials and new construction...

Wrenchtraveller · 06-24-2006, 07:20 PM

It would be interesting to see what percentage of Montana Buyers are full timers. I am pretty certain that the number of full timers is comparatively small but on the other hand, retired folks can live in their units half of the time so what is the real difference between half time living and full time use. This is one of the reasons the higher line units have to be better made than the entry level models that get used 3 weeks a year. I think any Montana that is well maintained can last a long time and will stand up very well to full time use.

Broome101 · 06-25-2006, 03:04 AM

I would like to see them keep improving along each year. Instead of options make them standard on things that most people order anyway. Also would like to see them upgrade the cabinets to all wood instead of only wood doors. The wrapped particle boards are something else to be desired. least little scratch or water on them the are gone.
We love our Montana but there are somethings on it that could be improved without a doubt.

richfaa · 06-25-2006, 03:05 AM

It is just Marketing Dave..It says nothing.."Four seasons living ABILITY" Doesn't say you can actually do it.Most folks buy a product based on what they read and hear..Those carefully worded claims will sell Montana's and that is what marketing is all about. "Four Season living ability" Sure if you live in Say Yuma , Arz you can live in it in all seasons..but how about where you live or me here in Northern, Ohio.. Of course you CAN live it..you may freeze to death, Every pipe in The camper may burst...but you CAN live in it... So I say..hey ..all my pipes burst and the Bird is frozen solid..you said All season living ability...well yes we did ..but we did not say where or under what conditions.... Nope..this will not talk us out of wintering in Yuma, Arz..

Broome101 · 06-25-2006, 03:26 AM

Rich I cannot let the lawyer in me come out on this topic, last time I did I keep getting PM from powers to be to calm down on my opinions. By the way the topics did get locked out.

dsprik · 06-25-2006, 03:52 AM

I agree, Rich. I would never intentionally move any FT unit to New Orleans in Aug with hurricanes playing around in the Gulf, nor would I ever think of taking it to Hudson Bay, Ontario in January (with or without a bird). I do think that Montana has recieved clearance from their legal department to now move "up a class" and start marketing to "long-timers" more than before.

The step from LT to FT is an obscure line that is easily crossed. Just have to get consumers to believe Montana now has the capability to be used as a LT unit rather than a "weekender" or a stictly "summer vacation" toy. Up until now, they weren't allowed to make this claim

Many people (like me) look for wording in product descriptions, when making decsions. I also understand that some people would move FT into a 1965 20' TT, and some would not move into a $250K Royal International Monaco 5th wheel for a week in moderate climates.

This marketing, I believe, is an attempt to get consumers who would not have taken a second look at Montana, to now do so.

Again, this is just my take of this new wording.

*on Edit~ Wow, Rodney, must have been some really good legal advice.

richfaa · 06-25-2006, 04:16 AM

Broome101...I have negotiated enough union contracts and been involved in enough mediation cases from both side of the table and to be identifed as a " Expert" in aviation technical issues to understand how important "wording" and the "letter of the law"is. That is whay I choose to be within legal weight limits for example.

Wrenchtraveller · 06-25-2006, 07:39 AM

I know I got a very nice sounding insurance policy for my Montana for a pretty reaonable premium but it was stipulated that I would not live fill time in it and it was for vacation use. I told the salesman that I do construction work and I do live in the unit while I am working in an area. He phoned an insurance rep. at the main office to double check and they said this was fine and I was covered for working vacations as well.

As far as improving the Montana, we can do a lot of that ourselves after the warranty expires and I have done a few things already. Take the stair hand railing I installed. This should be a standard part of any home. They will not let you move into your new home with no hand rail on the stairs, yet Keystone sells units to elderly frail people without this vital piece of safety equipement. I guess if a unit was classified for full time use they would have to raise the bar on a lot of safety issues. Take our 9 inch step well that we have on our entrance way. Most building codes do not allow a stair riser that high. This is why an RV maker would have to be very careful to market a unit as a full time residential home. A whole new set of rules comes into it. My 2 cents.

Cat320 · 06-25-2006, 07:53 AM

In this day and age, nobody writes or publishes anything without the lawyers scrutinizing every word and every meaning. It's a sue happy society, and people see deep pockets in an RV manufacturer. It is called CYA...and I can't really blame them!!

dsprik · 06-25-2006, 07:58 AM

Don, that stair setup is a concern to me, too. Just seems like someone could design an easier system to climb into these things by, rather than having to break out the oxygen when they reach the top (or half way up). Can you post a pic or two of your hand railing?

Wrenchtraveller · 06-25-2006, 08:05 AM

[IMGPlease reduce the picture to conform with Forum Policy regarding photo size. Thank you. RVWheels MOC Admin. http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f79/Wrenchtraveller/pictures9009.jpg[/IMG]

Wrenchtraveller · 06-25-2006, 08:13 AM

Sorry for the size but computer copy and paste is an adventure for me. This rail cost under 20 dollars for me to make and at least Montana should offer it as an option. My Dad, who will be 80 in August could not make it into my Montana's bathroom without this rail and Donna and I use it everytime we go up or down these stairs.
By the way, Donna and I get around pretty well but we want to keep it this way.
The Montanas have much better stairs than many units out there so this is an industry weakness, just not Keystone. Keystone, if your listening, start addressing stair safety, undoubtably one of the biggest cause of accidents out there.

dsprik · 06-25-2006, 04:15 PM

Don that looks nice! Thanks!

8.1al · 06-26-2006, 07:58 AM

There is a big difference between 4 season livability and full time. I bet if you were to read the fine print in the owners manual it says "This unit is not designed for full time living". All the blather in the brochure sure sounds good though doesn't it?

Jim and Marcia · 06-26-2006, 04:28 PM

Wrenchtraveller, Nice work on the stair railing. What did you find in the wall to fasten it to,that was sturdy enough to with stand the "pull" when using it?

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