Hmmm, maybe the axle is not the culprit - Montana Owners Club

sreigle · 06-10-2008, 12:08 PM

In another thread I posted about severe tire wear on the inside of each tire on the rear axle. We are not overloaded as far as total axle rating and total weight on those axles. But I don't have individual axle and wheel weights so do not know for sure we're not over on one of those.

Today we pulled into our "home" park. I backed into our usual site where we are always level. Hmmm, we're a bubble low on the drivers side.
Got out my carpenter's level. Sure enough, low on the drivers side. One 2-inch board under each wheel on that side. Almost level. Since we have to pull out in the morning to go get our dead refrigerator repaired, that's close enough.

We did a minimal setup so we can hurry up and clean up and go visit the kids and grandkids. But, first, I peeked underneath to figure out why we're low on the one side when we're always level in this site. Here's what I found. This is the rear spring hanger on the drivers side.

And here's the good one on the other side, for comparison.

I am not sure how long this might have been this way. Possibly this threw the axle off enough to wear out the tires and probably to misalign the axle.

The Montana is 21 months old and has traveled about 16,000 miles (I have exact mileage in my log). I hope this hanger is under warranty. I'll find out tomorrow.

HamRad · 06-10-2008, 12:24 PM

Steve,

The broken hangar could very well be the cause of the tire wear. This subject has come up before so before we hit the road this last trip my brother took a look at all my holders and said they all looked OK. But that the hangars were definitely a potential weak link. There should be more weld on them and also one end should have a cover welded on. That would make them much stronger. I would think Lippert would make good on fixing the problem. They really should be more strongly constructed. Good luck.

Dennis

JimF · 06-10-2008, 12:40 PM

Darn Steve, that really speaks of poor quality in my mind. That hanger should have at least an 80% safety margine. Hope they take care of it for you.

H. John Kohl · 06-10-2008, 01:02 PM

Steve, good catch and glad it did not completely fail on the road.
Let us know what happens.
Cheers,

richfaa · 06-10-2008, 03:11 PM

I think Snfexpress had that problem.. We watch those hangers closely..They are IMO a very weak spot particularly for those of us that do a lot of road miles' That is on my list for the fall rally.Keystone needs to address that issue. Glad that you caught it Steve. That would be ..I think, a lippert issue...I know it is not covered under our Servcse plan(Extenderd Warranty)

Emmel · 06-10-2008, 03:30 PM

Steve, I'm glad you found that now instead of when you were traveling. I think if it would have broken the back piece when you were moving it could have caused a lot of damage and maybe even an accident. Count your blessings you found it early enough!

Okie Guy · 06-10-2008, 04:34 PM

Good catch! I am so glad you and vicki were not driving when you found this problem. I hope they take care of you and upgrade your axles for the trouble.
Good Luck!
Phil

MacDR50 · 06-10-2008, 04:34 PM

This has been shown before. The fix was also shown. As soon as I am out of warranty those brackets are going to be strengthened. Lippert must think they are building them for doll houses. Someone is going to be killed because of a failure at high speed. I have looked at other brackets on other brands and these are among the worst.

I tried to find the previous thread but no luck.

noneck · 06-10-2008, 04:54 PM

That is not good...just as an fyi on failure you would immediately know as that side would then walk forward due to spring unload causing the tire to ride against the front tire. You would see smoke coming from the tires rubbing. The benefit of tandems...down side is I can't think of a temp fix to allow limp mode. Let us know your fix and status.

sreigle · 06-10-2008, 05:50 PM

I think we were, indeed, fortunate. We've just completed two days on the road, totaling 622 miles and three road days in the past six days totaling over 950 miles. We went this far, I think I can limp to the dealer's tomorrow. There will be some interstate involved but I'll be sure to stay in the right hand lane where I can quickly get to the shoulder. The dealer is maybe 12 or 13 miles from here.

snfexpress · 06-10-2008, 06:29 PM

Steve,

See this thread: Axle Bracket Problems . Lippert suggested that the hangers have gussets welded on them (basically half-boxed - see pictures in thread). The welder who repaired and replaced the hangars suggested that they needed to be 1/4 inch thick as opposed to the 3/16 inch OEM thickness.

I spoke with Lippert and they paid for my repairs by a mobile welder within the 2 year warranty period. Bill High was straight up with me.

Aram also told me, in a telephone conversation, that he saw the pictures in my post and was in consultation with Lippert. This was in January, 2008. I am thinking of buying a new Big Sky and see that the hangers haven't been changed...Hmmmmm....

Have to say that I was scared when I saw this...I didn't want to make the 45 mile trip to a Keystone dealer - I was afraid of disasterous consequences.

Rich - did you ever get a response at the Tampa RV Show?

Whoa! Just realized I hit 775 posts. While I read most every post every day, I don't always respond. I get a lot out of this forum and always reply when I think that I have something to add that is informative and hasn't already been said. Two hundred twenty five to go to a thousand!

Mrs. CountryGuy · 06-11-2008, 02:22 AM

Michael

Congrats on your milestone

We always enjoy reading your posts! Keep it up!

And, this one is a prime example, great info there!

richfaa · 06-11-2008, 02:45 AM

No more than you did Mike.At the fall rally we will have a chat with Jason Lippert on the issue.

noneck · 06-11-2008, 01:52 PM

Ok, like to expound on this topic a bit... do we think this is an issue of the LARGER Montana rigs having exceeded the safety margin for what appears to be a typical hanger bracket? I'm hoping my 02 3255RL has a bit more room with the same bracket.
Trying to "read" into Steve's failure, question regarding the good side looks like it is a "U" shaped bracket with two weld beads on outsides to hold onto the "I" beam. The failure almost looks like it had an internal weld bead or was not a contiguous "U" shaped bracket? or (this is just showing additional tear starting)?
Another thought to this is the "U" bracket failure suggest some sort of side load force was introduced causing an initial crack the then progressed to a full failure?
As Carol commented...I 2nd the Mike applause for his comments they are all welcome as additions to this great forum.

richfaa · 06-12-2008, 02:23 AM

Just my opinion. the more you use these things the more that can go wrong with them. Again IMO..they are not designed for the kind of use that some of us give them. I have seen this issue on other forums on other brands. Both MOC'ers that had this issue are 'High users" We are also sort of high users thus the concern. I also think the heavier units are more prone to the issue. After rolling over some very uneven ground side to side we have got out and checked those supports.

ehmcfarl · 06-12-2008, 03:28 AM

Michael, did the new brackets that Lippert sent have ends welded on them and were they made of thicker steel, or were they just new brackets just like the originals? Did they send you all new brackets or just the two that were damaged? I had not noticed how thin these were before. They really look like an accident just waiting to happen.

sreigle · 06-12-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by snfexpress

Steve,

See this thread: Axle Bracket Problems . Lippert suggested that the hangers have gussets welded on them (basically half-boxed - see pictures in thread). The welder who repaired and replaced the hangars suggested that they needed to be 1/4 inch thick as opposed to the 3/16 inch OEM thickness.

I spoke with Lippert and they paid for my repairs by a mobile welder within the 2 year warranty period. Bill High was straight up with me.

Aram also told me, in a telephone conversation, that he saw the pictures in my post and was in consultation with Lippert. This was in January, 2008. I am thinking of buying a new Big Sky and see that the hangers haven't been changed...Hmmmmm....

Have to say that I was scared when I saw this...I didn't want to make the 45 mile trip to a Keystone dealer - I was afraid of disasterous consequences.

Rich - did you ever get a response at the Tampa RV Show?

Whoa! Just realized I hit 775 posts. While I read most every post every day, I don't always respond. I get a lot out of this forum and always reply when I think that I have something to add that is informative and hasn't already been said. Two hundred twenty five to go to a thousand!

Thanks, Michael, and congratulations on the 775 posts! Keep them coming.

I missed your earlier thread so thanks for the link. Mine looked just about like yours did. We had it fixed yesterday, working with our Montana dealer, the one we purchased this rig from (now known as Lifestyles RV). The service manager is working with Keystone or Lippert about warranty coverage. We're within the two years so it should be covered.

The guy who repaired it told me he would strengthen it but I haven't yet crawled under to do more than a cursory look. I will do that to make sure it is, indeed, stronger. I didn't think to have him do anything with the other hangers.

Now I wonder if I should contact Keystone or Lippert about strengthening the remaining hangers. I **think** this problem probably existed for about the last 1500 miles of travel so we were very fortunate. I base that on how long we've noticed we always have to use blocks under the wheels on that side to get level in every rv park we landed in. I was remiss at not crawling under to check that out sooner. I just thought it was a string of coincidences.

Noneck, I will need to crawl under to verify but I think it's a U bracket welded to the bottom of the frame. But, until I crawl under I can't confirm that. We're trying to get ready for our rental car trip to Virginia, leaving early Saturday, so it may be a couple weeks before I can confirm.

HamRad · 06-12-2008, 01:39 PM

Steve,

I think I'd have them "sister" some additional steel on the existing structures and "box" them. That should give you the strength needed. This whole hanger and shackle thing is just too serious to go "cheap". This "cheap" process is going to get someone injured or killed. This needs correction from the very beginning. Hope Keystone steps up and does it right. It couldn't cost more than a $1.00 to do it right from the get go.

Dennis

foggyb · 06-12-2008, 02:29 PM

It was obviously caused by the lousy camp site I put you in!

Dan

snfexpress · 06-13-2008, 11:02 AM

Here are some more thoughts on this. Noneck, you are right, the brackets are flat steel bent to resemble a U. I was told that Lippert doesn't temper them after the bending process; thus at the bend is an introduced weak spot. Then they are welded to the frame with a welding bead (proper term?) by a "station one" Keystone employee.

Lippert replaced my rear brackets (the ones that failed) with OEM - same as that came with our Montana. At the suggestion of a Lippert representative, I had the welder half-box the U brackets. The reason for half-boxing is so that one can get to the leaf spring bolt.

While underneath the trailer, I had the welder do all four U brackets and inspect them, as well, even though Lippert said that they normally see damage only to the rear axle brackets due to the added stress of being the trailing axle (binding, as was stated in another thread about popping noises while backing).

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