Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > Tow Vehicles & Towing
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-26-2020, 06:16 PM   #1
Phil P
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Okeechobee
Posts: 2,150
M.O.C. #11206
When do you become a commercial vehicle

Hi

This is just a follow up to some very incorrect information given to your members by a LEO.

First a LEO’s opinion is not Law.

Second a Judge’s opinion is law until it is overturned by a higher court.

Here are a couple of pictures of 2 different trucks with DOT numbers on them and the words “NOT FOR HIGHER” under the DOT numbers.

The reason for this is the judge determined it doesn’t make any difference if you are being paid for hauling the trailer behind your truck or not.

If you do not own or lease that trailer you become a commercial vehicle.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20200723_175423-2.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	439.7 KB
ID:	6887   Click image for larger version

Name:	20200723_175815-2.jpg
Views:	73
Size:	154.7 KB
ID:	6888  
 
__________________
2009 Montana 3665RE
2009 Duramax 3500 DRW quad cab
personal web page https://www.sallyscoffees.com
If you get a page not available then remove the "s" after HTTP
Phil P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2020, 08:34 PM   #2
bleedmichigan
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Columbia
Posts: 303
M.O.C. #23739
Sorry but unless I’m missing something only commercial vehicles need dot numbers. Thus if it’s got dot numbers it’s a commercial vehicle.
bleedmichigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2020, 08:38 PM   #3
1retired06
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Lake Gaston
Posts: 8,773
M.O.C. #12156
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedmichigan View Post
Sorry but unless I’m missing something only commercial vehicles need dot numbers. Thus if it’s got dot numbers it’s a commercial vehicle.
My thought also.
__________________
Mike and Lorraine
2002 3655 FL, 2005 3650RK
2010 3665RE, 2015 3910FB
F350 crew cab dually 6.7
1retired06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 04:03 AM   #4
Phil P
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Okeechobee
Posts: 2,150
M.O.C. #11206
Both of you apparently didn’t read the last 2 lines of my post or the words under the DOT number.

The words under the DOT number are “NOT FOR HIRE”


The owner or driver are not paid to move the trailer that is behind the truck.


The judge says that makes it a commercial vehicle.
__________________
2009 Montana 3665RE
2009 Duramax 3500 DRW quad cab
personal web page https://www.sallyscoffees.com
If you get a page not available then remove the "s" after HTTP
Phil P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 05:43 AM   #5
bleedmichigan
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Columbia
Posts: 303
M.O.C. #23739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
Both of you apparently didn’t read the last 2 lines of my post or the words under the DOT number.

The words under the DOT number are “NOT FOR HIRE”


The owner or driver are not paid to move the trailer that is behind the truck.


The judge says that makes it a commercial vehicle.
No I read the post including the last two lines. The post was simply unclear. If the truck has dot numbers it doesn’t matter it you own the truck, trailer, etc it will be looked at as a commercial vehicle.

Simply put if you have dot numbers it’s a commercial vehicle. If you put not for hire under the dot numbers it does not change the commercial vehicle status.
bleedmichigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 05:54 AM   #6
rollingdownthehighway
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Where ever we park
Posts: 201
M.O.C. #20273
When you see a truck with DOT Numbers and "not for hire" listed as well, it means a few things. 1) they are commercial and working for something like a carnival, circus, zoo and some farms in some areas. Where they fall under the commercial definition, but only work for that one person/company only.. There are even a few paving companies around me that has a few trucks with DOT numbers on them and "not for hire" listed below those numbers as well.

The definition of a commercial driver is someone getting paid to haul something for someone. Anyone can buy any truck out there from a pickup to a Class 8 semi and use it for personal use or use them for commercial use. As of now there is no specific law saying that certain trucks have to have DOT numbers, or commercial plates on them.
__________________
Mike
2016 Chevy CC DRW Duramax
2019 Montana 3700LK
rollingdownthehighway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 06:32 AM   #7
rboan
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: nebraska city
Posts: 5
M.O.C. #26290
The judges opinion would be the rule of law in their jurisdiction or their court as how they interpret the law. .The judge in a different county could have a different opinion and rule another way.The LEOs rely mostly on how you answer the questions as far as if you are engaged in a commercial activity and need to be DOT registered.
In general, a USDOT Number is required if you are operating in interstate commerce and meet the following criteria: You have vehicles that are over 10,000 lbs. (GVWR, GCWR, GVW or GCW) You transport between 9 and 15 passengers (including the driver) for compensation, whether direct or indirect.
rboan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 06:37 AM   #8
uhftx
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hudson
Posts: 480
M.O.C. #2446
Next thing we rehash over and over again is:

Licensing in your state and travel in other states. Dot = commercial period!
State by State: Unlike off road vehicle or fishing licenses these are reciprocal state to state. If you are legal in your state towing one trailer then you should be legal in everystate. I say should be because a lot of states have laws on the books about towing double trailers and limitation laws on the books. Can't tow a 5er then a utility trailer and a boat behind.
Over 26000 Lbs for tow vehicle, in my state is class upgrade from auto.
In my state has no motorhome type License or endorsement. Your car license is sufficient.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rollingdownthehighway View Post
When you see a truck with DOT Numbers and "not for hire" listed as well, it means a few things. 1) they are commercial and working for something like a carnival, circus, zoo and some farms in some areas. Where they fall under the commercial definition, but only work for that one person/company only.. There are even a few paving companies around me that has a few trucks with DOT numbers on them and "not for hire" listed below those numbers as well.

The definition of a commercial driver is someone getting paid to haul something for someone. Anyone can buy any truck out there from a pickup to a Class 8 semi and use it for personal use or use them for commercial use. As of now there is no specific law saying that certain trucks have to have DOT numbers, or commercial plates on them.
__________________
Chris Donna and Oliver the rescue Dog.
Old 3255RL It is a weekend warrior and less than 15K miles. Mostly sits at the house. Home is where the heart is.
uhftx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 07:10 AM   #9
rboan
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: nebraska city
Posts: 5
M.O.C. #26290
I guess we can ask the people who make the law .

Do I Need a USDOT Number? | FMCSAwww.fmcsa.dot.gov › Registration
rboan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 08:38 AM   #10
uhftx
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hudson
Posts: 480
M.O.C. #2446
Quote:
Originally Posted by rboan View Post
I guess we can ask the people who make the law .

Do I Need a USDOT Number? | FMCSAwww.fmcsa.dot.gov › Registration
If you would like one. You may apply.
When I first applied for a business license. The bank presented me with the paperwork for a DOT application which I filled out for the business. Just so I could transport electronic circuit boards in accordance with the law in my POV. Maybe if It grew and I needed a commercial truck then at least I would have a number. Is it like in the real world. A 4, 5, or 6 digit DOT number is a novility and status symbol? like a state tag or vanity plate?
__________________
Chris Donna and Oliver the rescue Dog.
Old 3255RL It is a weekend warrior and less than 15K miles. Mostly sits at the house. Home is where the heart is.
uhftx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 08:44 AM   #11
Charlie 3931fb
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Waynesville
Posts: 533
M.O.C. #25947
Real easy guys. Commercial is working for hire. If I am picking up trailers and getting paid for it I am a commercial driver. If I own the truck, trailer, and I have not been put on payroll or been hired by anyone to move that unit down the road, I am NOT a commercial vehicle.
__________________
Charlie & Sofia
Sawyer (The Lawyer) Buster Brown Fur - babies

46 years married (Dam I been in prison that long)
Charlie 3931fb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 08:52 AM   #12
uhftx
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hudson
Posts: 480
M.O.C. #2446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie 3931fb View Post
Real easy guys. Commercial is working for hire. If I am picking up trailers and getting paid for it I am a commercial driver. If I own the truck, trailer, and I have not been put on payroll or been hired by anyone to move that unit down the road, I am NOT a commercial vehicle.
I agree, If both are registered in your name,
Same as a motorhome towing a dolly and a vehicle. It is recreational. Not commercial.
In addition if you borrow a trailer to take stuff to the dump from your neighbor or you are moving a 5er for a friend and he is with you or gives you the paperwork? This happens all the time. How many trailers have you towed which are not registered in your name. For me it as at least 30 for utility or boats or popups. All non commercial and for my own purposes.

In regards to Charlies signature: congratulations, Myself is over 30 yrs married. Just remember it is the only license you can apply for which does not expire, For richer or poorer and wishing you good health for the rest of it.
__________________
Chris Donna and Oliver the rescue Dog.
Old 3255RL It is a weekend warrior and less than 15K miles. Mostly sits at the house. Home is where the heart is.
uhftx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 10:30 AM   #13
rboan
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: nebraska city
Posts: 5
M.O.C. #26290
I have a DOT and MC number but not for my camper.The FMSCA requires you have at least $750.000 in liability insurance before they will issue you a number. Then your vehicle will have to be inspected every 12 months and you will be audited in the first 6 months of receiving your numbers.That will also open the door to keeping logs,fuel purchase (IFTA) and drug and alcohol testing.
rboan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 10:34 AM   #14
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
We had a CDL for many years and turned it in at the last drivers license renewal as we saw no further use for it. We did not need one in Ohio for the RV.
We did have a "experience" at a safety check in a rest area a few years ago when we were towing a RV that was not ours and could not prove who owned it.
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 02:03 PM   #15
AZ Traveler
Site Team
 
AZ Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Oro Valley
Posts: 3,899
M.O.C. #20477
Phil,

Did your input come from a county, state or federal judge?
__________________
Zack and Donna plus Millie and Ranger
2018 3160RL

"Life is too short to stay indoors, enjoy the ride!"
AZ Traveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2020, 09:56 PM   #16
Jester
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Fort Edward
Posts: 112
M.O.C. #25910
Payment in cash , check or credit card are not the only way to be paid for the service. It goes much deeper than that.
Let’s say you use your trailer to take your sons go cart to a race.
Is that In commerce?
It depends, will there be prize money, will you be sponsored for running the cart?
The caveat is, will you be filing it on your income tax? Then yes, you are in commerce.
You need to look in the FMCSA exemption # 21. If you meet the requirements, your exempt.
If anyone is really looking for an answer from someone that knows, pm me . I have names and phone numbers for people in the enforcement end of D.O.T. That want to help you.
Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2020, 09:34 AM   #17
rboan
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: nebraska city
Posts: 5
M.O.C. #26290
Here is a questionnaire from the FMCSA ,real simple 3 questions will tell you when you need a DOT #.
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registrati...usdot-number-1
rboan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2020, 10:01 AM   #18
mlh
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salem
Posts: 7,528
M.O.C. #2283
If you need a commercial license someone from the state will tell you. Until then don’t worry about it. It ain’t no hangin offense.
Lynwood
__________________
www.harrellsprec.com
Lynwood Harrell
323 RL HC 2008 F250
mlh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 12:38 PM   #19
FG89
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Evansville
Posts: 3
M.O.C. #26824
First post, wanted to share a recent experience of mine. Sorry if I’m hijacking, thought it went somewhat in line with the thread topic.

We are from Indiana, but we were towing our 2020 HC in PA with our 2019 F-450. Combined we are grossing over 30K. Got pulled over by at PA state trooper for not having my temporary tag on the rear of the camper. Just bought it a few weeks ago, all info was inside the cab. While stopped, the trooper checked the GVWR on the truck and camper. When he returned all of our information, he gave me a ticket for “operating a vehicle without a valid license for that class or type of vehicle.”

The trooper stated I was not legal in PA due to our gross being over 26K. I told him because I am operating for personal use, not being paid or compensated, I am legal. In addition, because Indiana does not require any other form of license for recreational use, I am legal state to state. He disagreed with both of these and gave me the ticket.

Has anyone dealt with this sort of encounter before? I have studied the DLA agreement with both PA and IN on them since this encounter and still believe myself to be legal to operate. In addition, I found a PA statute stating a nonresident can only operate a vehicle class that they are licensed to operate in their own state. So, since I can operate in my home state I should be able to operate in PA.
FG89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2020, 07:41 PM   #20
Jester
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Fort Edward
Posts: 112
M.O.C. #25910
Commerce or being in commerce only answers the question of whether you need D.O.T. Numbers. It doesn’t exempt you from any safety regulations.
Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.