Winter Camping

[bob n pam]

Hi Gary & Carole,

The faucet cover is technically an outside hose bib cover. There is a little hook inside of the cover which is attached to the valve (or something under there), and then tightened from the bottom of the cover. It sealed up against the belly of the trailer. Bob covered the hoses with foam pipe insulation before he put the cover on. We bought it at Menard's (like Home Depot or Lowe's).

The insulation board is 2" extruded polystyrene insulation board made by Owens Corning, it's pink in color and Bob cut it to fit, laid it on top of the slides and weighted it down with bricks. He also cut the insulation board to fit the inside vent openings, which we wedge in and pop out as needed. They really help with the heat loss.

The holding tank heaters are available from Camping World. We ordered ours online.

If you want to know how Bob hooked them up, etc. just let us know and we'll post details.

Happy Camping!!

[toolmanroy]

Bob and Pam, what do you do when the temps get below zero in that area? We lived there for many years but I could not take anymore of the winters. Each January like clockwork it would get 10-20 below zero and never get over freezing for at least a month, sometimes several months. We only owned a popup camper at the time.

[Glenn and Lorraine]

I know what I did when temps got that low last winter. I sat down here in sunny Florida and read about it. Think I'm gonna do the same thing again this year.

[sreigle]

quote:Originally posted by cargary

Steve:
Without all the facts, we are left to assumptions. We just assumed that you might be one of those folks that like the cold - while not as many do, there are those that have that preference. Mind you, not the sub-zero cold, but where the temps get no lower than in the mid teens. I share your desire to be with your children at and around Christmas as we also will make the journey south next winter after the holidays are over with. With our children all here near us in central michigan, this will be our home for the larger part of the year. We would like to tour the southern states starting next winter as you folks appear to do now. Savannah sounds interesting and most likely not as congested with snowbirds as maybe florida or texas has become.
Thanks again for the great tips and sorry for the misunderstanding. Have a great Christmas and hope your travels are safe.
Gary & Carole

I didn't take it as a misunderstanding, just as a good question. We've been very fortunate this winter, so far, knock on wood. We did have two snows, one with eight inches and one with two but they were gone in a day or two. We've only had three or four nights below freezing and none yet below about 27. One may have got down to 25. No day has yet failed to get above freezing during the day and most are in the forties and fifties. I probably just jinxed it. I can deal with cold for awhile, but not long. But I fear most the day before we leave being frigid and maybe the day we leave here, too. Ice and snow would be bad. But just getting everything ready to go in nasty frigid weather is not at all fun. We have a heat taped water hose and that's not a big problem to do. I also have a five gallon bucket full of insulation to put over the park's spigot. But this year I had to heat tape the park's pipe the spigot is on from ground level to spigot. It's heat taped, insulated, and duct taped, and I will remove that the day before we leave. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Come on out to Savannah. We arrive there Jan 10 and will be there two months.

Happy Holidays to you and your family.

[cargary]

Steve:
Thanks for the invite, but we can't make it this winter. I am retired, but Carole, my wife isn't and won't be until June of 05. After that, we may just see you there.
Same to you and your family. Have safe holidays.
Gary & Carole

[sreigle]

We probably won't be there after early March '05. We'll be somewhere else the next winter. But we hope to meet you either at a rally or on the road somewhere. Happy and safe holidays to you folks, too.

[cargary]

Steve:
We look forward to that next year. Its always nice to put faces to the voice or the notes. Thanks again.
Gary & Carole

[Montana_2694]

Hi folks,

I’m the newest student in Winter Camping 101……..
Just getting this “heating the pipes” thing down before it's too late. We may use ours next winter so this may be a project come spring or fall. What is the heat tape all about and how does that differ from the insulation foam? Are both alternatives ultimately doing the same thing? I would imagine heat tape would be better suited for tighter locations. What gives the tape the “heat” connotation?

We have the single pane windows too and I'm interested in the 3M film tape. I’ve read where bob n pam applied the film outside and sreigle applied inside. I too have notice the vents at the bottom of the windows for venting which can become an issue when maintaining heat in the camper is a premium. I'm having trouble visualizing how to block off most warm air exiting the camper through these window vents while allowing moisture to escape through the same vents. Is it one or the other?

Thanks for the extra help!

[sreigle]

A heat tape is essentially an electrical cord in some type of insulation material. Usually it has a thermostat that will turn on the electricity. Think of it as a narrow electric blanket for water pipes. We have two of these. One is a thirty footer I got at Home Depot or Lowe's. Per the instructions, this one is to be run parallel to the "pipe", not would around it. I have it on a 25' water hose and looped it back the last five feet. Taped the heat tape to the hose every foot or so. Then covered the taped hose with foam insulation tubes made for water pipes. Then duct taped the whole thing. That's my winter hose. I connect it as you usually do a water hose, then plug it into the park's electrical pedestal. With the thermostat, it's operation is automatic.

The second heat tape I got is six feet long. I got this one at Tractor Supply. This one can be wrapped around a pipe. I have this one taped to the park's water pipe coming out of the ground. I then covered that taped pipe with roll insulation, then the foam tubes, then duct taped the whole thing. This one has a thermostat, too. On both heat tapes the thermostat is open to outside air.

I also put a five gallon plastic bucket filled with loose insulation over the spigot handle itself.

3M Film. I wasn't aware Bob n Pam put theirs on the outside. Guess I missed that point. I'd like to hear from them about how well it stays on that way. It would likely be easier to put on outside. To put it on the inside I have to remove the valances (2 screws each), the curtains, and the day/night shade, mount the film, then put it all back together. It takes a couple of hours or so to do all the windows.

As for the vents, my assumption is their purpose is to drain condensation from the windows. With the film on the inside they still do that. If they're intended to provide airflow to inside, well that I want to stop. 16 degree air coming in from outside is not a nice thing to have. If it's to vent moisture from the coach, then I guess I'm stopping that, too. But I don't **think** that's their purpose. I could be wrong.

Moisture can escape by cracking a vent, or running the water closet fan or, in our case, a fantastic fan in the bathroom hallway, the range hood fan while cooking, etc. We're not having moisture problems so I guess we're ok.

Hopefully some others will jump in and provide more info. There's a lot to be learned on this topic and I'm all ears. Good questions, Smoketrain.

[Montana_2694]

sreigle,

Thanks for answering my questions.
It makes sense to do a good job on the water source and hose that goes to the camper since those would be exposed directly to the elements otherwise.
Did you do anything in the belly or the storage compartment (under the hallway/bathroom area) or is that reasonably protected given your experience.
Were/what are the "low point drains." Is that term referring to the three tubs with caps on them protruding through the belly? BTW, what are the three tubs coming through the plastic bottom? I know one is for draining the fresh water tank but for some reason I can't think of what the other two are there for (one is mid way forward.) How do the outlet/pipes used to drain the black, grey and galley tank into the sewage dump hold up?

Thanks!

[sreigle]

Yes, the other two, the two right together, are the low point drains. Supposedly that's the lowest point in the cold and hot water lines. And it's very susceptible to freezing. In the 20's they can freeze and not hurt anything so long as the frozen part doesn't extend up to where those pipes tee into the main water lines. I've wrapped mine as noted above. I don't yet know if that will be enough. We got down to 16 the other night. About 4:30 am I woke up and decided to try the water and found cold water fine but hot was just dribbling. So it was freezing. I let it run so the hot water thawed out the ice. Then I let the bathroom hot water faucet run a thin stream the rest of the night (we're hooked up to sewer) so they wouldn't freeze. I don't think it was the low point drains freezing. Rather, I had left the electric heater going in the living room with furnace at 55 and I don't think the furnace was running enough. We have forecasts for this weekend to get down in the low teens with one day a high of 28 so will see if I did a good enough job on those drains. RC and Samantha live in Michigan and use their Montana for winter sports. They used a plastic case (from a drill or something like that) filled with insulation. RC also shortened the drains so not so much was outside the belly. I'm not sure if he's had it in very cold weather yet.

That area you refer to as the 'storage compartment' is also known as 'the basement'. In there I never had a freezing problem but this past winter I did put those foam tubes on the exposed water pipes but mostly to reduce the heat loss of th e hot water as it travels from the far rear corner of our Montana to the bathroom. We like hot showers. .

Also, in the basement and on the belly pan I used the expanding spray foam insulation to fill all openings where pipes go through. Another thing I picked up from MOC, open the basement doors during bright sunlight (or put a light source in the basement. Look under the pocket sliding door between downstairs and upstairs. If you see light, you might want to fill that with the foam. I saw light and felt the draft so filled it. It was at a seam in the basement where vertical wall meets ceiling of the basement.

The purpose of the low point drains is so you can drain water out of the lines when winterizing.

Other than that I've not done anything in the belly area of our Montana. Some folks have insulated pipes, or re-routed pipes away from metal frame members, etc. If we have freezing problems this winter I may resort to that before next winter.

[bob n pam]

Hey, Steve. Responding to your question about placing the film on the outside of the windows. Bob remined me I should let everyone know we are not traveling with the window film. We are set up and stationary and have been for a while. We used the film specifically for outside windows. It applies with double faced tape which is included in the kit. We chose this over the shrink wrap type for the very reasons you mentioned - removal of the valances, shades, etc. For venting we use the fantastic fan in the bedroom, fan in the bathroom or open door coming and going. We will remove the film before we leave here.

We also fill our water tank and drain the hose after each filling. Our run is a little too far to stay hooked up.

Toolmanroy - when the temps are below zero we use lots of propane, electric heater, bottled water, and hopefully this year we won't freeze up and have to go to our daughter's to shower!

[sreigle]

Thanks, Bob n Pam. We have about 1200 miles to travel to Savannah, GA, when we leave the Kansas City area in early January. Since Jan temps in Savannah average a low of 38 we'll want to keep the film on. Your post lets me know what I needed to know. Next year is January sees us going somewhere warmer than this year then we may go with the outside film while in the KC area. Thanks.

Also, if you freeze up again, try laying on your back under the Montana with a hair dryer blowing on the low point drains. They're the first to freeze up and can freeze up into the belly where it can block water flow. We had this last winter and RC and Samantha clued us to the hairdryer trick. Less than five minutes under the Montana and we had water flowing again. I've insulated those low point drains this time around but don't yet know if it's enough. Saturday night they're talking a cold front bringing temperatures down to the low teens with a high on Sunday of 28 before it warms up again so in a couple of days I'll know if the insulation helped. We had one night down to 16 and I woke at 4:30 am and checked the water. The cold was fine but the hot was trickling so I left it running a small stream and went back to bed. I had the electric heater running downstairs that night so don't think the furnace ran enough. I won't do that again.