The Dreaded Black Tank Leak - Montana Owners Club

exav8tr · 12-09-2010, 03:25 AM

Well, after three and a half years of fulltiming in our 3400, traveling from Alaska to Florida and Maine to So Cal and many points in-between, our black tank has developed a leak. We noticed the distinct odor several months back, especially when it was time to dump. We said we should get it checked. Well the other day I flushed it very well and very long, then let it fill until it overflowed. It did so from the bottom of the trailer and not thru the toilet. I suppose this indicates a leak on the top of the tank, perhaps the fittings (?), anyway, we have an RV company coming out Tuesday to drop the belly pan and check it. I suspect we will need a new tank. They will order and when it comes in I have to take the 5er to their shop for replacement. They say it can be done in one day, so we should be back at our spot later that day.

Fortunately, we have an extended warranty plan that comes into play with a $200 deductible and "waste tanks" is specifically listed as a covered item. I suppose I will have to pay for the initial visit from the RV Tech, but will call our plan administrator today to see if it can be covered.

Will try and get the RV Company to install flex fittings and strap the tank down like it should have been in the first place.

Does anyone have any suggestions while this is being done?

I want to thank Richfaa for the information he sent me on the tank manufacturer.

richfaa · 12-09-2010, 03:54 AM

Phil... Make sure you get Prior authorization from the extended warranty company
We had the installing facility do some extra bracing on our replacement tanks. The warranty company will not pay for that and do not mention to them that you may do it.
It is about a 5 hour job and the "Arctic package material should be replaced

CamillaMichael · 12-09-2010, 05:34 AM

Phil, first, sorry to hear of your misfortune. I suppose the good news is you appear to be in a pretty nice place to wait out this problem. Do you have any idea what this fix is going to cost you (or your extended plan)? Please provide "after action" report. Hope you are able to get the problem fixed, and soon. Michael

richfaa · 12-09-2010, 05:41 AM

Note... My black tank replacement @ 3 years ago was 794.00 at our local dealer. covered by Extended Warranty.

exav8tr · 12-09-2010, 06:27 AM

Michael, I was quoted around $1000. They said they have done it many times on Montanas (UMMMM???). My deductable is $200.00. Rich, thanks again, I will make sure they call for preauth. Ditto on Arctic wrapping......

Will try and get the RV Company to install flex fittings and strap the tank down like it should have been in the first place.

I'm thinking they should be able to include this in the bill as labor and shop parts, if not I will pay out of pocket as I think it is necessary. Too bad Keystone didn't feel this way back then, perhaps they are doing it differently now???

tim43 · 12-09-2010, 06:58 AM

I just had my rear galley tank replaced. Make sure the warranty company authorizes enough hours to cover the job. Mine didn't authorize the total hours covered and I had to go back to them and they then reimbursed me for about 80% of the overage of three hours of labor. You are fortunate in having a company that does this quite often so their hours estimate should be right on the money. Tim

richfaa · 12-09-2010, 07:08 AM

The extended warranty company will pay for replacement to OEM spec's. It may cause problems if you tell them you want to do anything extra like brace the tanks.. Our EW approved 5 hours and that was plenty. If the repair facility is experienced they should know how to deal with and what to say to the EW company. IMPORTANT If you do NOT get pre authorization from the Extended Warranty company....they will not pay. It is the repair facilities responsibility to get the authorization.It is your responsibility to see they do it.
I called the Warranty company myself and asked them what to do then told the repair facility to call and stood there while they did it... Can't say it to many times....pre authorization from the warranty company to the repair facility is a lock out..

CamillaMichael · 12-09-2010, 08:54 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

The extended warranty company will pay for replacement to OEM spec's. It may cause problems if you tell them you want to do anything extra like brace the tanks.. Our EW approved 5 hours and that was plenty. If the repair facility is experienced they should know how to deal with and what to say to the EW company. IMPORTANT If you do NOT get pre authorization from the Extended Warranty company....they will not pay. It is the repair facilities responsibility to get the authorization.It is your responsibility to see they do it.
I called the Warranty company myself and asked them what to do then told the repair facility to call and stood there while they did it... Can't say it to many times....pre authorization from the warranty company to the repair facility is a lock out..

Seems I have seen too many folks stuck with out-of-pocket expenses because they failed to get pre-authorization...well I did not acutally see this...read about it in the Good Sam magazine.

exav8tr · 12-09-2010, 01:36 PM

Thanks for reiterating the Pre Auth thing. I'm glad someone is looking out for me. I will call tomorrow and see if their written procedures have changed. The written contract says have the repair facility call with estimate and invoice numbers. I always thought the invoice came AFTER the repairs, so will clarify with them tomorrow.

THANKS AGAIN FOR LOOKING OUT FOR ME........

scductman · 12-09-2010, 02:59 PM

Phil that is about the right price. I had the back galley tank replaced under warranty one yr later the front tank leaked found out the dealer took it out by mistake and reinstalled it "NOT VERY WELL" but they wanted 175$ for the tank plus tax and shipping and 95.00 per hr @ 10 hrs to fix it. that was when I discovered how to repair or replace a tank real quick.
bobby

CamillaMichael · 12-10-2010, 02:49 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by exav8tr

Thanks for reiterating the Pre Auth thing. I'm glad someone is looking out for me. I will call tomorrow and see if their written procedures have changed. The written contract says have the repair facility call with estimate and invoice numbers. I always thought the invoice came AFTER the repairs, so will clarify with them tomorrow.

THANKS AGAIN FOR LOOKING OUT FOR ME........

The way things work these days seems a constant source of confusion for me! It's like asking how long it is going to take to fix something before it is actually fixed...I know some will say, "well, there is work history to refer to." While that might be true, how many of us have started a "simple" project and had it grow into something entirely different. Your plan to clarify is probably wise.

SlickWillie · 12-10-2010, 04:51 AM

I'm thinking the tank doesn't have to be cracked to leak if overfilled. It's my understanding the inlet from the toilet and vent use grommets to seal....that is not a positive seal. I would think the constant movement going down our worn out highways would cause those grommets to loosen. You fill the tank up to the top, and it leaks around the grommets. All three of ours will leak if over filled.

exav8tr · 12-10-2010, 06:17 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie

I'm thinking the tank doesn't have to be cracked to leak if overfilled. It's my understanding the inlet from the toilet and vent use grommets to seal....that is not a positive seal. I would think the constant movement going down our worn out highways would cause those grommets to loosen. You fill the tank up to the top, and it leaks around the grommets. All three of ours will leak if over filled.

Will, I didn't know that, thanks. When the service guy comes next week I will have him check the grommets also, may save me some money. Would these grommets cause the gases to escape while stationary? Of course the service people may want the extra revenue for replacing the tank. I have never used them before so this might be a good test of their reliability and honesty.

Thanks again!!!!

Phil

richfaa · 12-10-2010, 08:26 AM

What I observed when they were replacing my black tank in Sept is that it IS a positive seal on the inlet of the black and gray tanks IF the tank and the seal is properly installed they will not leak when filled up. Our galley tank files up all the time and it never leaks. The black tank just replaced was not properly installed by the local Keystone dealer @ 2 years ago causing the inlet pipe to wear through the seal and leak at the top. The gray tank did have a split on the side but the seal at the top was still a positive seal. If the tanks leak when full there is a problem. It is difficult to confirm that the leak is at the inlet but it no doubt is. Both of the tanks just installed do not leak when full.

It is my opinion that many of these tanks that leak at the inlet were not properly installed at the factory and it takes a experienced repair facility to understand how to install them. We had our installed at D&T RV repair which is right in back of the Montana plant. The install scores of these tanks of many brands and knew exactly how to properly install them and how to brace them.

SlickWillie · 12-10-2010, 09:42 AM

Rich, I understand what you're saying, but I just don't see a positive seal with a grommet on pvc pipe. Seems they recommend butyl caulking, and while it may be good, it does not melt the two compounds together. It may stick for a while, but you keep over flowing the tank, and it will have a small amount of pressure on it, resulting in eventual leaks. IIRC, our dealer's tech didn't even seem to think Keystone used any sort of glue on the grommet....merely the tight fit. Merely my opinion.

Just another opinion, but I think the tank would be better with a welded fitting with a short pipe and a rubber coupling to connect it to the toilet or whatever was draining into it. One thing is for sure, if the RV manufacturer does it, you can bet it can be improved. Of course, they use a tank that will fit 50 different applications, so they let the tech cut the hole and fit the grommet in the tank.

richfaa · 12-10-2010, 10:40 AM

That picture is exactly what they use. They did use caulking on the replacement tanks. The guys at the repair shop said that the cause of leaks at the inlet is caused primarily by improper installation of the tank .That is the inlet pipe is not properly aligned causing stress on the tank. They used a slightly different angle pipe on my replacement. I do agree that as much banging around that some of us do on these things contributes to the failures. However...why has our galley tank and fresh water tanks never leaked.??????

Your solution make sense but it might cost the manufacturere another 1.98 per unit. We have been through 3 tanks in 4 1/2 years at a cost of nearly 2,000.00. Lucky we have the extended Warranty.

SlickWillie · 12-10-2010, 03:17 PM

Rich, our galley tank will leak if overfilled. IIRC, the fresh water tank is polyetheylene. I believe the other tanks are abs plastic. You never hear of a fresh water tank leaking; at least I haven't. Just looking at them, the potable water tank looks like heavier material. Of course, they have to be FDA approved to carry potable water....that in itself may be the difference in quality.

Oh well, good discussion anyway. I'm gonna drop the belly one day and check out my tanks. I have the extended warranty, but I like to see for myself what is going on before I talk to anyone.

drsmart · 12-10-2010, 03:34 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie

Rich, our galley tank will leak if overfilled. IIRC, the fresh water tank is polyethylene. I believe the other tanks are abs plastic. You never hear of a fresh water tank leaking; at least I haven't. Just looking at them, the potable water tank looks like heavier material. Of course, they have to be FDA approved to carry potable water....that in itself may be the difference in quality.

Oh well, good discussion anyway. I'm gonna drop the belly one day and check out my tanks. I have the extended warranty, but I like to see for myself what is going on before I talk to anyone.

SlickWillie. Good point about the tank material. I may be wrong but the grey and black tanks are joined to their appliances by rigid large diameter ABS pipe and the appliances are secured in position. The tanks may have some movement as they are resting on supports and being jostled as we bounce down the highway. Especially those concrete Hwys with expansion joints. Some MOC'ers have suggested a flex link installation between the appliance and the tank to reduce the stress and eventual crack at the tank. The fresh water tank is connected to everything via small diameter flex pipe.

CamillaMichael · 12-10-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by SlickWillie

I'm thinking the tank doesn't have to be cracked to leak if overfilled. It's my understanding the inlet from the toilet and vent use grommets to seal....that is not a positive seal. I would think the constant movement going down our worn out highways would cause those grommets to loosen. You fill the tank up to the top, and it leaks around the grommets. All three of ours will leak if over filled.

Some time ago I posted a question about the tank gauges and how much more they would hold once the gauge shows full...well, what you are saying (leak if overfilled) is exactly what I was concerned about. Thanks for that bit of information...useful.

Bill-N-Donna · 12-10-2010, 09:46 PM

On our maiden voyage we had a few gallons of grey water spill from the seams of the belly pan when we moved the camper. I believe it was from the galley tank and upon inquiring about it I was told that they will do that if they get too full; because of how the fitting above the tank was made. I’m not convinced that it should be that way. However, after adding a valve at the end of the sewer line to support some extra volume we haven’t had any more problems with it. We also leave the galley tank open all the time. We don’t travel with the lines or tanks full but being conscious of the fact that it can get too full and spill out into the under belly we have never had any more problems, neither do we notice any type of smell as a result.

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