V10 versus Diesel - Economy

[MacDR50]

I have been watching the increasing gap between diesel and gas prices. I have updated my calculations for payback period gas vs diesel. Here are the results. All values are $Can but we are near enough on par with $US that it doesn't matter.

Assumption is that a diesel gets 15% better mileage than a gas engine.
Truck is a 2008 F250 Crew Cab Long Box with auto transmission, XL edition. All options are the same except engine and mandatory changes to axle ratios that come with engine choice.
the
MSRP V10 $39,000 Diesel $46,000 Tax is 13%
Per liter Price of GAS 142.2 DIESEL 159.5
Estimated Mileage Gas = 2.22 kilometers per liter Diesel = 2.55 10 miles per gallon vs 11.5)

Difference in price of truck is $7,910 including tax.
Savings with a diesel are approx. 1.6 cents per kilometer.
Price to pay back cost of diesel = 494,000 kilometer or 310,000 miles.

This ignores financing charges as well as higher maintenance costs for diesel. It also ignores that the diesel will outlast the gas engine. This seems a mute point as most will not put that kind of mileage on either engine.

[bsmeaton]

Roger,
Pardon my ignorance in advance -

Are you folks required to use the Low sulfer fuel? I thought the technology and additives caused the increase in deisel or gas costs, but it seems you have a similar gap?

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

I have to say, I think that 15% is LOW,

We get 7 to 7.5 on our gasser

Many of the diesel guys claim 10.5 to 12, right??

that is closer to 50%, isn't it???

please correct me if I am wrong. I can take it!

[racerjoe]

We have an F250 Lariat short box,super cab with a V10, auto, Towing our Monty we get between 8-10 mpg, it just depends on terrain,etc: I could not justify a diesel when we purchased this truck. I only drive about 9-10,000 miles a year and did not think I would ever see a payback on the diesel. The V10 seems to handle the trailer well. Now,I am not sorry at all with the price of fuel approching $5.00 around here.

[TLightning]

I agree with Mrs. CountryGuy...and believe the fuel mileage is significantly better with a diesel. Another benefit of the diesel, though totally intangible, is the total ease in which a diesel handles the trailer...it is a very pleasant and relaxing experience and you don't arrive at your destination totally whipped. I've had and pulled with a big block V8, and it is not a pleasant or relaxing drive!

[richfaa]

Having had a 05 V-10 and now a 08 6.4L..the 6,4 is heaver because of the diesel and a 4X4.. Pulled the same 3400 with both of them over the same roads.. V-10 towing 8.5 on a good day. Normal average 7.5 to 8.5///Solo 12 average.

08 6.4L towing 10mpg on a good day.Last 700 mile trip pa and ohio tpk last week 9.5MPg. Solo 15/18 average more likely 15/16.5.

No doubt that the diesel pulls better but the V-10 did just fine. Both of the Ford 350,s were plush and the ride was the same. The only place there was a difference was on a good hill. If I were buying today( and I would be a fool if I were) I would give some serious thought V-10/ Diesel.

[tjuhl]

I too agree that the fuel mileage is significantly better then 15% with a diesel. The difference in costs savings of a new V10 truck vers. diesel gets pretty complicated when guessing at trade in/resale values, maint, etc.
I had a new Dodge hemi pulling a TT and then got a Dodge 5.9 CTD and pulled the same trailer and mileage increased 35-45% (about 8.2 to 11.3mpg), and the diesel eliminated that constant shifting that drove me nuts. And now with more miles am getting 11.2-12 pulling the Monty. I'm not saying if buying, you shouldn't consider the lower cost of the V10, but even with the $.65-.80 diesel cost over gas, the fuel cost of a trip is cheaper with a diesel, at least for me.
Rich, I've always read your threads with interest. I know you have been a suporter of V10s and I'm not certainly not questioning that. It does seem like your mileage with your new Ford is a little low compared to other reports. Maybe some of those other reports are a little optimistic??

[FLSTS03]

Another thought is how long the large gap between diesel and gas will last. I would bet oil prices will settle down early fall or maybe sooner, local news aired a story earlier this week about how many rv'ers are staying put this summer-that has to be hurting those interstate mom and pops that depend on summer travel. If we want diesel to be cheaper then we need to take up an offering and let me buy a V-10, as soon as I do diesel will bottom back to $2.79 and gas will sky rocket to $4.00. Little on topic/little off topic.

Steve

[ggranch]

What is important IMHO about Rich's report is that it is the same driver, pulling the same load. The only difference is the truck. I have never met Rich, but it may be that his right foot is about the same size as mine. I am recording 8s, 9s, and a rare 10 with my V10.
Bob

[MacDR50]

If we pop the savings up to 45% the math still looks positive for gas and negative for diesel. About 164,800 kilometers/102,200 miles to pay back. Now I realize diesels have more torque for the same horsepower so this isn't about performance. It is simply about economy. With respect to resale, that is currently a big question. There is a world shortage of diesel as Europeans increase their usage. Diesel usage is also up due in part to fuel subsidies which make trucks more cost effective than trains or ships in a just-in-time supply chain. This is why diesel has increased faster than gas as crude prices rise.

Another factor that may come to play in my own decision is that gas engines are easier to convert to LNG or LPG fuels. Now the bad news. Only Ford still makes a gas vehicle in the 3/4-1 ton pickup. If you want a V10 Dodge or a 8.1 GM it will have to be used. The good news is that the resale on these is starting to get soft because of those rising prices. This means there may be bargains to be had.

Brad we are all ULSD here by law. You can't sell any other diesel for road vehicles.

[richfaa]

Bob..I am size 9 and very easy on the throttle....and my my V-10 MPG and yours match closely. The 6.4 MPG is the worst among the big three. My F-350 weighs in at @9200lbs loaded for towing. The 05 V10 was @ 800 lbs lighter than that.10MPG towing the 3400 is about average. We did not get that on our last trip. I belong to a Ford Diesel forum and most of the posters have trouble with accurate numbers. We only use the trucks for towing so the high cost of energy does not hit us as hard as others. The V-10 served us well and it was a good truck. We got the diesel because our towing needs changed and the diesel was better suited for the job. I am dissapointed that Ford could not be competitive with the other two in MPG and in 100% perfect hindsight if I had it to do over I would get the Cummins. Oh..8mpg gas average to 10MPG diesel average is 20%. Sounds like a big number..but it is 2 mpg. I like my diesel it got me down Rt 30 from Breezwood to Gettysburgh 8 and 9 % grades (Barely) and it made sounds I never want to hear a diesel make again. 38 Boost, 1300 EGT.. 237 Degrees transmittion temp, 3500 RPM's .I think the gas motor would not have made it??? I have this problem of telling the truth...even if it hurts...

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

AHHH, Rich,

You is hurting me!

We took Tana and Big Butt on the National Highway, I 68 in the panhandle of Maryland. Believe we had 6 to 8 % grades.

We lived to tell about it!

And, then Al came home and educated himself even MORE about towing under those conditions.

We would do it again.

[boylanag]

Last spring we took the same US30 from Breezewood to Gettysburg towing Monty with our 2001 Ford F250 gasser. We were slowed considerably - 30 MPH or so at times - but made it. We will never intentionally take another 2 lane highway through mountains again. When we approach a steep grade, we are comfortable on an Interstate because we do not have to be the first to the top. Our mileage is around 9 generally when towing and 7-8 in the hills. We purchased the truck before we got our first Montana in 2002 and quickly wished we had a diesel. Now we are glad that we have the gasser. We never would make up the difference in costs. As long as we travel at 55 or so, we are fine with just what we have.

[Mrs. CountryGuy]

I always tell Al that the good Lord puts those hills there for a reason, so that we can slow down and have a good look!

It is nice being retired and having the time to do 30 up a hill, eh??

I can only imagine what the instant economy mileage was on one of those hills, going up?? 2 MPG? GULP!

This is how we always figure this stuff, IF the gasser gets 7.5 miles to the gallon and IF the diesel gets, say 11 MPG, that is about 50 % more mileage per gallon. IF, gas were to cost, $3.00, (well, one can dream, eh??) then, diesel would need to be $4.50 per gallon to have equal costs per mile.

Or something like that!

Last time I saw gas and diesel prices together, the gas was like $4.15 and the diesel was about $4.89. So, if my old foggy brain is working right, the diesel was still a bit ahead of the gas engine for how far that fuel $$ got us.

This does not take into account, as MacDR50 points out, any finance charges, trade ins, and all that other stuff, no upkeep, no oil changes, none of that.

Now, these comparisons do not work for Rich. If the gas were $3.00 then, with his 20% better mileage, diesel would need to sell for $3.60 before we get to the equal $$ for fuel numbers.

[tjuhl]

Mrs CountryGuy,I think you're on the money. Diesel here is 19% more then gas so if a diesel truck gets 20% or more MPG, then it's ahead. Rich may be better off then he thinks, I believe 8 to 10mpg is a 25% increase, not 20%.

[richfaa]

That US 30 out of breezwood is a one time experience. Tbhd (Dennis) came down the same way and agreed..never again. I thought the 6.4L was going to come apart and to keep all the readings at a reasonable level we climbed, I think is was 8. 5 grade followed by a 9 1/2 % grade, followed by more,at a blazing 25MPH.Going down was no better as the TH did the job but we were really screaming. Had to stop at one pull over and let the transmission temp cool down from 237 Degrees..Normal running temp is @ 160. My thought was that since we could not keep the diesel within reasonable parameters the V-10 would have had a real hard time. At any rate we would not want to subject any motor to that kind of abuse again. We buy the truck that best serves our needs,no matter what the brand or Motor. tjuhl We understand that we are doing better with the diesel and with the rebates and the Ford X plan we paid 5300.00 extra for the motor to do that. At these prices we are all hurting...

[sreigle]

We started fulltiming with a 1999 F350 SRW shortbed supercab with the V10. that was the first year for the V10 so maybe the later versions get better mileage. We towed the same Montana after purchasing a nearly identical 2003 F350 but with the 6.0L diesel. My mileage difference between the two trucks was very close to 40% better with the diesel, towing, city, highway. That was a major $$ difference in those days when diesel was cheaper than gasoline. As that reversed and the discrepancy continues to grow, the mileage $$ advantage continues to shrink. We're still better off in that respect with the diesel but if the difference continues to grow there may be a time when it's neglible or even reversed.

[tbhd2]

That section of US30 between Breezewood and Chambersburg is not a fun ride with 23000 pounds. We ended up taking it again solo to get to Shanksville to visit the "Flight 93" memorial. An awesome experiance. But some of the downhills even solo were exciting. We went home a different way with the trailer.

[skypilot]

A bit off-topic, but ... there is a 'History Channel' program that covers the diesel truck and industry here in the US. One of the segments covers the development of the 'turbo' just for traversing the road, and others like it, that you describe, not only out east but also to expand the shipping to the western states. Found it very interesting how much the turbo helps on those hills (uhhh -- steep grades!!) and concurrently the development of the exhaust brake to help on the down side of the grades (plus the development of the 'runaway truck off-ramps'.... Again, very interesting and a recommended show to watch when they show it again.

Sorry for the off-topic but hope you also find it interesting.

[sreigle]

quote:Originally posted by tbhd2

That section of US30 between Breezewood and Chambersburg is not a fun ride with 23000 pounds. We ended up taking it again solo to get to Shanksville to visit the "Flight 93" memorial. An awesome experiance. But some of the downhills even solo were exciting. We went home a different way with the trailer.

We've done this same stretch on US 30, with the Montana. We towed US 30 from Pittsburgh to Gettysburg and back (part way back). I really enjoyed that road, for the most part. It does have some pretty good grades. When we took it the Dodge was new and I was trying to take it easy on it while breaking in but it did just fine. The Flight 93 memorial is truly an awesome experience, as you said. I didn't realize how close those homes are to the crash site.

Carol, re I-68 in the panhandle of Maryland. We've traveled that road several times with the Montana and will do so again in August. If I recall, there are two grades marked 8%. Long grades, too.

I just remembered I bought a Mountain Directory East (still waiting on the West) awhile back. It mentions several 4, 5, and 6% grades including one 3 miles long. But no mention of 8%.

TBHD, looking at the Mountain Directory for the stretch of US 30 you mentioned, there are grades of 7% for 3 miles on the west side of a hill and 9% (steady 9% for 3 miles) on the east side. It's "winding two lane with curves that vary from 25 mph to 45 mph." Then, eastbound is a 2 mile climb that varies from 6% to 8%, then down 1 mile at 6% then back up for 2 miles at 7% then 3 1/2 miles of steady 8% descent with 30 mph curves. Then a bit later there is a 1 1/2 mile 8% grade up and the same going down on the other side. It was a beautiful drive, though.