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Old 05-14-2006, 02:22 AM   #1
indy roadrunner
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My Truck On LSD

Yes folks, my diesel TV is going on LSD uh correct term is USLD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) beginning in June. I just returned from a Fleet Maintenance meeting at our home office in which they presented some issues we are facing not only with our current diesel engines but trucks ordered in 07 with the new redesigned diesel engines. We have conducted our own test on the USLD and found that with the lower sulfur content the BTU's of the fuel was 2% lower to which translates into lower horsepower. Our test units also shown a 4% decrease in MPG - some attributed to the driver trying to get back some of the lost horsepower. Now the big issue revolves around the intergrety of the fuel provider. It seems that sulfur provides Lubricity in which the engine needs or test have shown engine failures if a replacement of that lubricity is not put in the fuel. The refineries cannot put the additive in as it would contaminate fuel in the pipeline also used by jet fuel. So the additive will have to be added to the tanker prior to bulk delivery to the filling station. Problem is there is no test equipment to determine if the right amount of additive is being added and we have found that this is two differnt types of additive - one is expensive and works the best another is cheaper and barely meets the minimum. So which will the gas station put in his tanks - we don't know. By the way, they also told us to be prepared to change fuel filters more frequently as this new LSD fuel will be clogging fuel filters more often.
Bottom line - don't expect any drop in diesel fuel prices - be prepared to pay even more.
Does anybody out there in Monty land know of a good additive to get from what is currently on the market????
 
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Old 05-14-2006, 05:48 AM   #2
Glenn and Lorraine
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Not sure if this will answer the question or not. If not, I am sure Power Research Inc. will come out with a product in very short order.

PRI-D

I have been using PRI-D ever since a diesel mechanic who works strictly on million dollar diesel powered yachts highly recommended it. His company also has 6 diesel haulers that also use PRI-D. He also owns a diesel pusher.
I pretty much add it at every fill up. Especially at those smaller stations where freshness is in question.
When I put gasoline in the tank by mistake the mechanic suggested a double dose after refiling with fresh diesel.

It is available at Camping World as well as Boater's World, West Marine & Boat U.S.

PRI-D is for Diesels
PRI-G is for Gassers
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Old 05-14-2006, 07:37 AM   #3
richfaa
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Indyroadrunner..we have been to several of these seminars for the private school I drive for regarding the effect of the new EPA/fuel standards on the bus fleet.I have been hesitant to comment of what we have heard as most folks would not want to believe it.We have heard all the things you report and have also been told to expect as much as a 20 to 30% decrease in efficiency all round because of the EPA and fuel standards in ALL diesel motor. The increased cost of the motor in light duty trucks may well be in the 3 to 5K range. In addition the big gas motors will be a thing of the past.The new fuel standards for gas will also decrease efficiency. The Ford V-10 and GM 8.1 will not meet standards in large states like Calif in the 07 models and without those large markets it is doubtful they will be continued to be produced. Using Indys figure of a 4% decrease in MPG(we heard the same) if you are doing 12 towing now with your diesel that would mean 8 maybe 9MPG. The gas numbers should be @ 2% lower.The interesting thing is that it is speculated that gas prices should be lower due to the new standards (right) whereas diesel prices will be significantly higher..We will see how this all plays put in the next year or so. Hope some of this stuff does not play out but we see grim times for the Rv'er.
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Old 05-14-2006, 08:49 AM   #4
indy roadrunner
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Well Rich, when our R&D guy told the parts coordinators they better increase the min-max on fuel filters - got my attention. During a break of the session I asked him "what about us small diesel guys you know pickup and light duty trucks". He said unless you want to pay through the nose to dealerships or people performing service on your truck - you had better learn to do it yourself. I think he said the duramax in the GM line also required a special tool to change the filter. I don't know - my P/U only has 1500 miles on it and I the computer said the fuel filter is at 92%.
From what I understand the 07 and beyond diesel engines will have to have a device something like a catalitic converter. Cummins and Cat both are taking a different approach. The Cummins is using a device that creates a "thermal" action in the exhaust system. Seems raw fuel will be injected into an "afterburner" device that is suppose to burn up the bad stuff (black smoke coming out of the diesel exhaust stack).
Cat is experimenting with something similar that includes a spark plug. Additional maintenance involves the cleaning of this "catalitic converter".
Rich I know what you mean about saying anything about this as the average Joe will poo poo this as bunk. They don't have a clue what is coming down the pike and wait till it hits them in the pocket book - I think there is going to be a major outcry from the motoring public. Basicly the EPA people as sneaking one through on them and it will be too late at the wake-up call. If you go on Flying J website they are already have a disclaimer about contract fuel prices due to ULSD situation.
I am wondering about all these people who have "chipped" their engines and what the ULSD will do to them.
Glenn thanks for the info on a good fuel additive. We are going to be needing to stock up on some and from the rumor mill at my place of work - could be some shortages when people wake up that the need additional Lubricity.
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Old 05-14-2006, 10:00 AM   #5
richfaa
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We began to hear about all of this over 1 year ago which is one of the primary reasons I got the V-10 Motor in 05.Time will tell???

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Old 05-14-2006, 10:18 AM   #6
Montana Sky
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I appreciate all the info you folks have posted. I have not heard much about the upcoming changes for 07 and how the new fuels will effect the current diesel motors out there. I have decided that I am not going to worry about it, will take each day as it comes, and do what I have to do to keep on driving. There is already talk about a new "gas hog" tax going into effect in 07 for the big V8 & V10 motors out there because of their poor economy on fuel. I am still glad that I chose the diesel over the gas motor, it is what works for me...
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Old 05-14-2006, 01:20 PM   #7
indy roadrunner
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Montana Sky, it is not all gloom and doom. I would still choose the diesel over a large V8 gasser at this point. It is just we need to be prepared to make some changes ie: watch the fuel filter a little closer and make sure you have a good approved additive. I am sure your GM Service Rep could provide you with a recommended brand in your area.
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Old 05-14-2006, 01:23 PM   #8
Montana Sky
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Phill,
I have already switched the fuel filter over to the 10k service plan (recommended by GM). I will also be stopping by the dealership in the near future to see what they have to say about all this, and find the additive they suggest. Thanks again for the heads up. I would rather be prepared than to find out the hard way.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:48 PM   #9
RKassl
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I totally agree with MontanaSky. There is no reason to do anything different right now with our diesels. I love my D/A if I have to put an additive in it with every tank, well, then that is one more thing to do. Right now I use an additive with my diesel. I would not switch the durmax for a gasser at any cost. Pulling my 2955rl is just amazing with the combo.

Happy Camping!
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:49 PM   #10
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I think I get the picture here, we pay the oil company to take out the good stuff that's bad and then pay them again to get the good stuff that's bad so our engines will run better. Sounds like a winner to me.
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Old 05-15-2006, 03:03 PM   #11
Montana Sky
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It is not the oil company taking the stuff out, it is the EPA. If the oil company and truck companies had their way, nothing would change. We get to thank the EPA for this one.
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Old 05-15-2006, 04:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Montana Sky

It is not the oil company taking the stuff out, it is the EPA. If the oil company and truck companies had their way, nothing would change. We get to thank the EPA for this one.

DITO, on that statement
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Old 05-15-2006, 06:05 PM   #13
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Just remember this the next time one of our politicians is giving a speech about reducing our dependancy on foreign oil. I wonder who's side the EPA is on because apparently nobody in that office is listening. They choke up all these motors with exhaust reburn emissions systems and motors that were getting better mileage are suddenly going back the other direction. The EPA killed Ford in 2004 when they redesigned the powerstroke because the 7.3 wouldn't pass the new emissions. Now Cummins has stroked the 5.9 to a 6.7 to keep up with the new emissions. It will use more fuel like the 04 05 06 did in the Dodge. There not listening to the politicians at all. Funny thing about all this is we are the only country in the industrialized world doing this much. I know China could care less about the enviroment. AL
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Old 05-16-2006, 04:30 AM   #14
richfaa
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From the Ford Truck Enthusiasts forum

Details on '08 model year diesel changes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Folks,

Some of this may be rehashed data but I picked up a copy of an internal Ford document from a local Ford dealer (new england) entitled: EPA - '07 yesterday.

It quotes new EPA regulations on sulfur content (500 PPM down to 15 PPM) for the Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel and also references new "low ash oils" that are also required - at $5.00 to $7.00 a quart. That pushes maintenance costs for us way up too.

Big exhaust system changes with new AFT (After Treatment Devices) that replace the muffler and/or resonator. A DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst) and DPF (Diesel Particlaute Filter) will remove the soot from exhaust. They use a "regeneration" process to burn the soot by injecting fuel into the exhaust down pipe and igniting it. Apparently at 100K miles, and/or 5,000 hours, a dealer service will be required to remove the ash residue. Projected at $500 (at least).

This doc also references that it's expected these changes will decrease mileage effeciency by at least 15% and that diesl "light trucks" will see a price increase of between $3,500 and $5,000 or as much as $8,000 more than a comparibly equipped gas vehicle.

Great data but it does make me very concerned about the complexity of these new "power plants".

He also indicated that the 2007 model year will be very short with orders already in the system now for '07's (very little change over the '06's) and that the 08's will start to be ordered around September.

Although he couldn't say it "for the record" he did indicate that there is a lot of trepidation with his customers about the new power plant.

On a separate note he also confirmed that the 4.5L diesel WILL make it to the F150 - not in '08, likely '09.

Bill
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Old 05-16-2006, 05:21 AM   #15
Montana Sky
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I guess I am glad I bought my truck when I did. I do not have to worry about most of this except for additives for the fuel. By the time this truck hits 200,000 miles (in 6 yrs) I will be ready for a new Duramax, and by then the bugs will have been worked out of the new motors.
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Old 05-16-2006, 06:43 AM   #16
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So that is why the stoped the 7.3 EPA stuff. so does that make my 7.3 a desirably engin?
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:54 AM   #17
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Trailer Trash 2

So that is why the stopped the 7.3 EPA stuff. so does that make my 7.3 a desirably engine?
I had someone tell me several month ago that the 7.3 was becoming very sought after on the used market. Don't know if it's true or not???

As far as the new regs, it's gonna be a hard pill to swallow if it's going to cost 3-5 thousand extra for the new technology. Problem is, the folks making the rules are well healed enough where it's not a significant impact for them. They'd get upset if their Beemers and Mercedes' got the price jacked up by 20-30 thou though LOL.

Also going to be scary till they get the bugs out of the new technology. I can recall (as I'm sure most here can) the crappy running, trouble prone power trains in the late 70's when the big switch to computer controls in the automotive field was taking place.

Me thinks the 2003 is going to have to last for a while.

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Old 05-16-2006, 05:48 PM   #18
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Don
The 7.3 is a good engine take care of it and it will run along time.I have the Dodge 2003. My Dodge gets over 20mpg on the highway not towing of course and I know that the 04 and later they made somemore changes and the mileage went way down. I'm like the coyote I'm keepin mine for a long time. My boss has been buying Kenworth kits and finding Signature Cummins motors from wrecked trucks or other ways to put in the kits to keep our fuel mileage where it is now. The fuel injection into the exhaust system is coming and you wait and see if the use of synthetic oil doesn't turn up. Al
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Old 05-20-2006, 10:25 AM   #19
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More info on the new USLD diesel fuel



http://www.clean-diesel.org/highway.html
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Old 05-20-2006, 10:47 AM   #20
dsprik
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Good info, John. Very depressing, though...

Not sure what is meant by, "Facilities that choose to carry ULSD..."??? What the heck does that mean???
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