Inverter System Install

[TomCat]

Hi Folks - first, I want to say how much I appreciate the wealth of knowledge on this forum and your willingness to share it! I could read literally ANY thread and learn something. I could go on ...

I am installing an inverter system. I am starting with 2 Battleborn 100ah LiPo4 batteries and a Victron 3000 inverter as the base components. I do not intend to install solar initially - we haven't started full timing yet and I want to make sure we will use it. Initially, I will plan to charge the battery bank by plugging into shore power, running a small generator, and when traveling through a Renogy 60A Dc to DC charger.

The best option I have seen so far is to mount the inverter and associated components to the back wall of the front storage area (wall between the front storage area and the pass through storage area). I have seen where some have mounted the components directly to the wall, but I am thinking of laying out the components and installing them on a piece of plywood, then mounting the plywood to the wall with bolts. I have 2 reasons for this: 1) it is much easier working with and installing components on a board on a workbench than bending and contorting my body in the storage area; 2) I want to maintain the storage area as "clean" as possible, without having screws from the other side sticking out in that area (manufacturer already did this some with the installation of the auto reset breakers).

Any other thoughts or recommendations? Anything I should be thinking of? Thanks!

[PNW Fireguy]

You are on the right path. The key is to spread the weight of the components across as much of the mounting area as possible. Wood screws attached to OSB are probably the least appealing method. I used 7/8 unistrut to span a portion of the width of the forward basement wall. The two pieces of unistrut are sandwiched using through bolts and my inverter attached to the unistrut using 3/8"strut nuts and bolts. In this way I have spread the inverter weight across nearly the entire OSB sheet.


On an unrelated note by not going with another Victron branded solar charger you are missing out on the inherent integration between their components as well as bluetooth connectivity. The BT may not be something you will miss (though it is very convenient), however a charge controller which cannot utilize the proprietary ve.direct connection could be a big deal.


I don't believe that Renogy makes an inverter/charger so hence the reason I approached this from the Victron side of things.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

You are on the right path. The key is to spread the weight of the components across as much of the mounting area as possible. Wood screws attached to OSB are probably the least appealing method. I used 7/8 unistrut to span a portion of the width of the forward basement wall. The two pieces of unistrut are sandwiched using through bolts and my inverter attached to the unistrut using 3/8"strut nuts and bolts. In this way I have spread the inverter weight across nearly the entire OSB sheet.


On an unrelated note by not going with another Victron branded solar charger you are missing out on the inherent integration between their components as well as bluetooth connectivity. The BT may not be something you will miss (though it is very convenient), however a charge controller which cannot utilize the proprietary ve.direct connection could be a big deal.


I don't believe that Renogy makes an inverter/charger so hence the reason I approached this from the Victron side of things.

Thanks very much for your reply. I read all of your posts about anything electrical - I really respect your knowledge, especially when it comes to doing things safely and within code.

Good advice on mounting. I am installing a second 50A service receptacle in the front, and am going with the AM Solar Smart Phase Selector. I am mounting both transfer switches and my Progressive EMS in the area behind the back wall of the pass through, so the inverter is really the heavy piece to deal with. I like your method and will do it that way. Just for clarification, Did you only install the inverter on the unistrut? Did you install the rest of your components directly on the wall, or did you mount them on another piece and then attach that to the wall?

Just to be clear, I am not going with solar at this time. If I do, I will certainly go with a Victron mppt to integrate with the system (it was one of the attractions of the Victron). I went with a Renogy 60A DC to DC converter because Victron's DC to DC is only 30A. You can stack them to increase the amperage, but it gets pricey. I wouldn't be opposed to swapping it out at some point if I see the benefit, though.

[Creeker]

I have no experience with Li batteries but I can't help but think a 3000 watt inverter is a mismatch for only 200 amp/hour battery bank. That inverter is capable of pulling around 275 amps at full load. I know it will likely never be at full load but for me, I would add to my battery bank if using that size inverter and/or requiring that much power.

Without solar, I would think you'll be running the genny several hours a day just trying to recharge batteries pulling that kind of power. The question then becomes if your forced to run the genny several hours a day why the need for the big inverter and battery bank to begin with. LOL

I guess what I'm saying is a 3000 watt inverter (power demand) without solar just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not trying to be a wanker either. Just throwing out my thoughts.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by Creeker

I have no experience with Li batteries but I can't help but think a 3000 watt inverter is a mismatch for only 200 amp/hour battery bank. That inverter is capable of pulling around 275 amps at full load. I know it will likely never be at full load but for me, I would add to my battery bank if using that size inverter and/or requiring that much power.

Without solar, I would think you'll be running the genny several hours a day just trying to recharge batteries pulling that kind of power. The question then becomes if your forced to run the genny several hours a day why the need for the big inverter and battery bank to begin with. LOL

I guess what I'm saying is a 3000 watt inverter (power demand) without solar just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not trying to be a wanker either. Just throwing out my thoughts.

Thanks for the reply! It's a valid question for sure. I have waffled a bit on initial battery bank size. I landed on 2 to start with for a couple of reasons: 1) I have assessed our power needs and how we are initially going to be using it. We are already pretty good at power management as we have owned a sailboat. Long story, but we will be traveling long distances to start with (hence the DC to DC charger) and moochdocking with 15A connections. The Victron has a power assist mode where you can set a threshold of line current after which the inverter will kick in and supply the extra over and above. 2) It will be really easy to add battery capacity later if we feel we need it (probably a 10 minute job).

BTW - we love Charleston! Our son and daughter-in-law lived on James Island for 4 years until they moved farther south (Beaufort area) a couple of years ago. Michigan to SC is one of the standard trips we will be making.

[Creeker]

That does makes sense to me. LOL
Moochdocking... I like it! Cool feature on the Victron with the power assist.

Our Charleston is in WV but we love Charleston SC too. We've camped at James Island county park and enjoyed it and the town. We spend a lot of time from Savannah GA up the coast to the OBX of NC. Lots of excellent state parks and other campgrounds. Been in Beaufort several times.

We visited the UP of Michigan a few years back and loved it up around Pictured Rocks and Lake Superior. Dry camped for two weeks up there in July and never needed the A/C.

[prndl]

Since we're on the subject....
My friend had a new Montana and the mfg mounted his inverter on the roof of the garage.
This seemed like a good place to mount it as most inverter instructions say not to mount it in an area where there could be combustable gasses. The battery area could be a potential hydrogen area due to the batteries?

[PNW Fireguy]

No combustable gasing with lithium.

[PNW Fireguy]

Originally Posted by TomCat

Thanks very much for your reply. I read all of your posts about anything electrical - I really respect your knowledge, especially when it comes to doing things safely and within code.

Good advice on mounting. I am installing a second 50A service receptacle in the front, and am going with the AM Solar Smart Phase Selector. I am mounting both transfer switches and my Progressive EMS in the area behind the back wall of the pass through, so the inverter is really the heavy piece to deal with. I like your method and will do it that way. Just for clarification, Did you only install the inverter on the unistrut? Did you install the rest of your components directly on the wall, or did you mount them on another piece and then attach that to the wall?

Just to be clear, I am not going with solar at this time. If I do, I will certainly go with a Victron mppt to integrate with the system (it was one of the attractions of the Victron). I went with a Renogy 60A DC to DC converter because Victron's DC to DC is only 30A. You can stack them to increase the amperage, but it gets pricey. I wouldn't be opposed to swapping it out at some point if I see the benefit, though.

I mounted the remaining components wherever I had space. I did not use a mounting board but I see no issue with using one if someone were so inclined. My Magnum MSH-3012 was by far the heaviest component and the one I needed to spread the weight.


On your DC to DC I am assuming this is for alternator charging? You will be in boost mode most of the time and as long as that unit is not limited to how long it can sustain that charge rate I would imagine that will work out good for you.

Sorry I had to edit because I forgot to add this regarding possible future solar add if value found...


One of the greatest features you already hit on regarding hybrid inverters is the ability to augment SP with inverted battery DC. This is what makes moochdocking on a 15A outside outlet possible and comfortable. We like to boondock but an even greater benefit in my thinking is that I don't care if I pull into a park and all that's left are 30A spaces or even no power. If my panels can get sun that 15,20 or even 30 amp feed is a 50A feed as far as my rig is concerned. Laundy, microwave, AC I don't care I can run it. The PV array will replenish your BB's no problem


I am about to radically change my system and looking to move my new inverters to about half way behind the basement rear wall. I am finding there is some room there and looking into fabricating a base for the inverters to mount and protrude through a cutout in the rear wall. This minimizes any lost storage (premium for FT's), and it's an area I can better control the climate.

[jeffba]

Originally Posted by prndl

Since we're on the subject....
My friend had a new Montana and the mfg mounted his inverter on the roof of the garage.
This seemed like a good place to mount it as most inverter instructions say not to mount it in an area where there could be combustable gasses. The battery area could be a potential hydrogen area due to the batteries?

Lithium batteries do not have that problem

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

...My Magnum MSH-3012 was by far the heaviest component and the one I needed to spread the weight.


On your DC to DC I am assuming this is for alternator charging? You will be in boost mode most of the time and as long as that unit is not limited to how long it can sustain that charge rate I would imagine that will work out good for you.

I looked at the Magnum and was very intrigued, but when I saw it was about double the cost of the Victron I chickened out. I do like the integration feature of the Victron system.

Yes, alternator charging. I have an F350 with the dual alternators, but I don't do anything with it but pull my rig (no snow plows, salt spreaders, emergency lights, etc.). I rigged up a continuous duty solenoid directly to the battery with a 100A fuse. 2AWG back to an Anderson 175A connector. Connected it to one of my upfitter switches. I can feed the 60A Renogy charger, and also use that connector on the truck for other high amp DC implements if I want to (12v air compressor, anyone?) Technically, the ignition key has to be turned on and the upfitter swich turned on, but realistically the engine needs to be running. I bought the wiring diagram for my truck, and that has been very helpful. From what I understand it shouldn't have to be in boost mode to feed the Renogy, but time will tell.

Sounds like you have an ambitious project ahead. I will be following anything you choose to post about it!

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by Creeker

That does makes sense to me. LOL
Moochdocking... I like it! Cool feature on the Victron with the power assist.

Our Charleston is in WV but we love Charleston SC too. We've camped at James Island county park and enjoyed it and the town. We spend a lot of time from Savannah GA up the coast to the OBX of NC. Lots of excellent state parks and other campgrounds. Been in Beaufort several times.

We visited the UP of Michigan a few years back and loved it up around Pictured Rocks and Lake Superior. Dry camped for two weeks up there in July and never needed the A/C.

Haha! James Island County Park was 1 mile form my son's house. We camped there several times, twice during the Christmas season when they have the spectacular Holiday display. We were there during the spring Cajun Festival as well. Love Savannah as well! Pretty much count on not needing the AC in the UP of Michigan, but here in the lower peninsula it hits 90 pretty regularly in the summer.

Thanks again for the thoughts, and happy camping!!

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by prndl

Since we're on the subject....
My friend had a new Montana and the mfg mounted his inverter on the roof of the garage.
This seemed like a good place to mount it as most inverter instructions say not to mount it in an area where there could be combustable gasses. The battery area could be a potential hydrogen area due to the batteries?

I just wanted to thank you for the reply, but others have answered already. I totally agree about being careful about the combustible gasses, but I am using lithium batteries. Unless the science folks are lying to us, I should be good to go.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

... This minimizes any lost storage (premium for FT's), and it's an area I can better control the climate.

I appreciate all the nuggets of information! This one caught my attention as well. I was wondering if I should have some kind of thermostatically controlled air exchange/ventilation in the front storage area. I'm just not sure how much heat will be generated when the inverter is humming along or the batteries are charging at 50A per battery. Any thoughts on that?

[PNW Fireguy]

In my case my Onan generates the vast majority of heat. Being that I only run it now to exercise it I have been able to manage that heat source. I did setup a relay and exhaust fan in the OEM battery compartment utilizing the stock battery exhaust port. It does an ok job of moving air to control the temp. I just series a couple of PC fans and fed them from the same relay I use for the heating source I added for freeze protection. I used 3D printer bed heating pads adhered to aluminum plates to disperse the heat from the bottom of my battery cells at 35F. My plan was to avoid those high and low temps but plans change and I found myself needing to address the potential temp swings. All of this is in addition to the BMS temp controls which are the second and last line of defense.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by PNW Fireguy

In my case my Onan generates the vast majority of heat. Being that I only run it now to exercise it I have been able to manage that heat source. I did setup a relay and exhaust fan in the OEM battery compartment utilizing the stock battery exhaust port. It does an ok job of moving air to control the temp. I just series a couple of PC fans and fed them from the same relay I use for the heating source I added for freeze protection. I used 3D printer bed heating pads adhered to aluminum plates to disperse the heat from the bottom of my battery cells at 35F. My plan was to avoid those high and low temps but plans change and I found myself needing to address the potential temp swings. All of this is in addition to the BMS temp controls which are the second and last line of defense.

Dang! And I thought I was detail oriented. That's quite the system to control temp. I do know about plans changing, for sure. We will now be able to go in stretches, but not sure when we will be able to truly full time. What you did with the PC fans is what I was thinking of doing as well, but maybe with an inline bilge blower or something like that, using the stock battery exhaust port. Seems like there are enough gaps that I shouldn't have to make another vent for air intake, but I guess we will see. Thanks again for sharing your wealth of knowledge and experience!

[firestation12]

You didn't mention if your intent was to run everything in your camper with the inverter system you described, or just a few select things like the microwave and TV. I have a 3000 watt inverter to do just that, which allows me to run 1 ac and the electric water heater on the 30amp circuit and the microwave on the inverter without tripping. When boondocking, I don't need to run the generator to watch TV or pop something into the microwave. I think you have designed a mismatched system to accomplish the stated mission. A small generator will barely run the voltage converter to charge your batteries, the microwave, and a small appliance such as a coffee maker. The A/C will will tip the scale and something will trip. Your stated goals are overly optimistic for for the equipment sizing and order in which you plan to install them. I'd recommend finding someone to help you design a system that will perform what you need now and also going forward later. Best of luck to you!

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by firestation12

You didn't mention if your intent was to run everything in your camper with the inverter system you described, or just a few select things like the microwave and TV. I have a 3000 watt inverter to do just that, which allows me to run 1 ac and the electric water heater on the 30amp circuit and the microwave on the inverter without tripping. When boondocking, I don't need to run the generator to watch TV or pop something into the microwave. I think you have designed a mismatched system to accomplish the stated mission. A small generator will barely run the voltage converter to charge your batteries, the microwave, and a small appliance such as a coffee maker. The A/C will will tip the scale and something will trip. Your stated goals are overly optimistic for for the equipment sizing and order in which you plan to install them. I'd recommend finding someone to help you design a system that will perform what you need now and also going forward later. Best of luck to you!

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate the thoughts. I didn't really state what my goals are for the design of the system (although I spoke to some of it in one reply) because I was looking for feedback on mounting options. I am confident in the system design meeting my needs. The only question is if I will want to add more battery capacity at some point - time will tell. Thanks again!

[suny07]

Originally Posted by TomCat

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate the thoughts. I didn't really state what my goals are for the design of the system (although I spoke to some of it in one reply) because I was looking for feedback on mounting options. I am confident in the system design meeting my needs. The only question is if I will want to add more battery capacity at some point - time will tell. Thanks again!

Hi,

just another thought. As you chose Victron because of integration... There is a new DC 2 DC Charger from Victron on the market https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-...ion-tr%20smart

Mike

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by suny07

Hi,

just another thought. As you chose Victron because of integration... There is a new DC 2 DC Charger from Victron on the market https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-...ion-tr%20smart

Mike

Thanks for the info, Mike. I really appreciate the your input and taking the time to join the conversation. I am aware of this product. As far as integration goes, I assume it would be accessible with the same bluetooth app as the inverter and BMS, so it would have a consistent interface/way of monitoring it. That's worth something. I didn't see where there is any "true integration", where the components talk to each other and react based on signals/events from each other. Maybe I didn't dig deep enough, but even if that exists it isn't as important at this point as the charge current capability. So, it came down to charge current to me. The Renogy I purchased is rated for 60A of charging, where the Victron is rated for 30A. To me, that means (roughly) that it would take almost 7 hours to charge my 200AH capacity from dead to full with the Victron, and roughly half that time with the Renogy. Time will tell how we end up living our lives with our Monty, and I'm sure some assumptions I am making now will not pan out and adjustments will have to be made. This is my starting point. Thanks again!