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Old 05-21-2013, 07:59 AM   #1
Larry-P
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AGM 12VOLT MIX

I currently have a Excide Deep Cycle battery in our Monty. The current battery is about 8 months old.

I want to add an additional 12v battery. (Not interested in going the 6v route) Can I add a new AGM battery to my current Excide battey.

Thanks
 
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:54 AM   #2
HOOK
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I did! Three years ago, working fine.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:30 AM   #3
bncinwv
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Ditto Hook, I have an Optima Blue Top AGM combined with an Interstate Deep Cycle. I do have a MBSS hooked up so I can isolate the batteries which has come in handy multiple times. For instance, I can start the fridge the day before a trip and if it drains the battery down, I can switch to the other, fire up the in-board generator, switch back and recharge the dead one while the genny runs. Not for everyone obviously, but works well for us since the rig is in a storage lot twenty miles from the house.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:23 PM   #4
Gkerlin
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You can do it but I wouldn't. Not unless you plan on isolating the two from each other. Will they blow up on you if you do it? No absolutely not. But you wont get the advantages of either type of battery if you mix them. Especially the AGM

AGM and lead acid batteries have completely different charging requirements. What is considered good, and necessary for long life in a lead acid (equalization) will destroy an agm.

The progressive chargers in our rigs are not really high quality chargers but if you ever put a decent one in it will require that you either set the type of battery (Flooded, Gel, AGM) or manually set the charging voltages... Wont be able to do that with a mixed bank. The batteries want to charge at different voltages for maximum capacity and longest life.

the Batteries will work fine for a while but you are not getting the best out of your bank as you would if you mixed like types and capacities, and your bank life will be shortened.

No offense to those who've done it - but why bother mix? Electrically it makes no sense. Either get 2 AGM's of the same size, or add a second lead acid of similar size and keep your system balanced.

Many other reasons why its not the best idea.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:31 PM   #5
Hooker
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Gkerlin

...You can do it but I wouldn't. Either get 2 AGM's of the same size, or add a second lead acid of similar size and keep your system balanced...
I agree, it's never a good idea to mix types of batteries or batteries of different ages.
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:28 PM   #6
Gkerlin
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I had said previously that there were many other reasons why it was not a good idea to mix types... here's just a few of them:

AGM batteries require lower charge voltages than wet cell. They have much lower internal resistance and as a result they charge much faster. That is one of the benefits of AGM.

When you mix AGM with wet cell and then go to charge them the AGM will always reach full charge first and then one of two things is going to take place.

1 The charger will see a fully charged battery and go into float resulting in an under charged lead acid. (reducing the life of the lead acid)
2 The Charger will not see a fully charged AGM and continue on full charge damaging the AGM over time and shortening its life considerably. (AGM are very intolerant of overcharging)

Either way one of the batteries is being killed much quicker than it would in a properly balanced system.

Additionally...

In scenario #1 above - with an undercharged wet cell - it immediately begins to suck power from the AGM as the bank wants to establish equilibrium and that slowly works to damage the AGM

In scenario #2 the constantly overcharged AGM looses capacity and starts to suck the life out of the wet cell.

Mixing types means you lose the benefit of either type of cell - especially the AGM

For instance... A benefit of AGM... Faster charge rate - becomes a liability in a mixed bank because it means an unbalanced bank. (Scenario 1 or 2)

Benefit of AGM - Ability to withstand deeper discharges better than wet cell. If you do deeply discharge the bank you will be harming the wet cell... So you can't.

If you usually drive from point A to point B, back in and always plug into a pedestal you might not notice how much your batteries are degrading but mixing the types like that they are going to degrade much faster than a properly matched bank and when you really need them they might not be up to the task.

Now - we're not even discussing here the drawbacks of having different sized batteries in the same bank...

I'd be way less concerned mixing a new wet cell with an 8 month old wet cell, especially if its been properly maintained, than mixing a wet cell and AGM. The latter is just wasting money without any upside benefit.
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:41 PM   #7
bncinwv
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All of the above comments are based on the batteries being on the same charging and draw circuit (Gkerlin did mention isloation initially). If they are isolated and charged separately (as mentioned in my initial reply to the thread), a lot of the mentioned concerns go away. I will concede that the OEM charger is not ideal, but I believe that the manner in which I installed the batteries is an acceptable manner (with a marine MBSS). After all, boaters have done it that way for years, even before there were fancy dual bank chargers available. The alternator charges both batteries in a dual battery system at the same time on a boat and there are reasons for having differing types (starting versus house) of batteries. Granted, my boat charger is configured accordingly for each type, but with the batteries in the rig being isolated, used and charged independently of each other, I do not see any noticeable degradation of the system occuring, at least one that will have any profound effect on my wallet. None of the above is based upon any degree of electrical expertise, just what I feel is my personal knowledge. If I am wrong, I am sure I will find out shortly, if I am partially right, I hope the information is likewise confirmed. We have to be careful in how provided information can be taken by those who may be seeking knowledge they don't possess. Hence my emphasis on the isolated batteries. Comments??
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:36 AM   #8
Gkerlin
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Bingo you are 100% correct regarding keeping the batteries isolated, and charged separately. The latter being very important.
the OP was merely asking about mixing types so when replying I'm trying to provide good info without going into information overload. Thats why I offered up some of the info in 2 posts rather than one.

I'd also venture a guess that the average person is not going to want to spend the time and effort isolating and then charging separately so in my 1st post I didn't get into that. I personally don't see the value in a single AGM being so great as to want to go thru that effort but that is a personal choice and there's nothing wrong with it if its installed properly.

My replies are always coming from the perspective that perhaps the person is going to want to create a larger bank for extended dry camping at some point in the future so any suggestions I offer would be to try start them on a path that would be scaleable. Again, mixing types would not be the most advantageous towards that end. Likewise the slow degradation of a single battery is not as expensive as the slow degradation of 4 or 6.

Any advice that I offer is geared towards trying to create a system that will be as efficient electrically as possible allowing maximum power, while making it as hands off as possible so as to eliminate the possibility of operator error or mistakes. (why I favor a sub-panel on inverter installations vs manual power management) Just think of all the dropped trailers and un-lowered tailgates and you can see why I suggest the hands off approach.

My sailboat had 6 lifeline deep cycle and 2 optima starting batteries. Although all AGM - they were still isolated. Not only by an Battery Switch, but with a Balmar Digital Duo Charger which automatically supplied alternator power to the Start Bank once the House bank was fully charged.

A battery switch is probably the single most way that people fry their alternators by inadvertently turning it to off while charging. By using the Duo Charger it eliminates the need to ever touch the battery switch for power management. When you're running 180amp 4 stage alternators it can get expensive and more importantly downright inconvenient if you are offshore.

Unless you have a battery monitor (like a Trimetric or some such item) you are probably not going to notice that your bank is only supplying 80% vs 100. And if you are spending most of your time plugged in it probably wont matter.

Another reason why I'm not a big fan of AGM's in our Monty's without installing a different charger:

AGMs are very charge sensitive. (why? thats another post) Over charging will kill them a lot quicker than just about anything. The Progressive Charger supplied with our rigs is geared towards wet cells and does not allow for modification of the charging profile. The charge voltages are generally a bit too high for AGM's. Way to high for some brands. They do not have temperature compensated charging (very important) , and they have this storage mode thing that boost voltage to 14.4v every 21hrs when the batteries are fully charged. This is simply because they didn't want to actually build a proper equalization cycle into the charger so they did this "electrolye stirring" function. This electrolyte stir is beneficial for a wet cell, but damaging to an AGM. Once fully charged, boosting the voltage back up to 14.4v every 21hrs is going to put one more small nail in the coffin of the AGM by overcharging it a just little bit every 21hrs.

Now that's not to say that the PD is going to kill them tomorrow. There's some nuance here. It's just not the best situation, and in some cases without the temp compensation its worse.

Add up all the nails we've put in the coffin of the AGM's (in this particular instance) and you'll see why my advice to the OP was to just go for another wet cell. don't get me wrong.. I love AGM's and wish I had 6 of them in my Monty. Maybe when I replace the Trojans.

Sorry for the length of the post... I've actually left a bunch out to try and keep it short.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:35 AM   #9
bncinwv
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No apology is needed for further clarification. You described the systems well and in a simple manner. Thanks for the informative follow-up!
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:42 PM   #10
ols1932
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I use only AGM batteries (Lifeline) and I wouldn't even consider mixing them. I have no theory for why except that my batteries are wholly charged by solar through my inverter (converter disconnected). I would be concerned about the differing charge rates of the batteries.

Orv
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