Pin Weight and Payload & Camper Cert.

[1retired06]

In the business I was in, if you made a statement without knowing the facts, it was a lie. If you were not sure then you kept your mouth shut until you were. I have never had a salesman, either RV or Vehicle who was not absolutely sure I could pull easily whatever the purchase. They want the sale. I have also come into contact with auto dealers who were right on top of it. We have also found over the years that RV manufacturers tend to understate the unloaded weight and sometimes the length. It is surprizing what you can discover when you go on the scales.

[southern thunder]

The dealer I bought from weighed his units himself before they went on the lot. Mine was about 500 lbs heaver than what was stated in the catalog. But mine has almost all options and I'm sure the weight listed by the manufacturers is a base unit. I can see how two base units could vary a little in weight.

[Hooker]

quote:Originally posted by Phil P

Hi



With a properly installed 5th wheel hitch you will not exceed any weight limitations of the TV or the trailer as long as you don’t exceed any axel rating or the gross combination weight rating.

Phil P

This is not normally true. If you add the capacity of the front axle and the rear axle of the truck, that total will exceed the truck's GVWR.

[Phil P]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by Hooker

Originally posted by Phil P

Hi



With a properly installed 5th wheel hitch you will not exceed any weight limitations of the TV or the trailer as long as you don’t exceed any axel rating or the gross combination weight rating.

Phil P

That is absolutely true.

The key words there are “properly installed 5th wheel hitch”.

When the hitch is located where the manufacturer of the TV specifies you will reach one of the TV axel limitations before you exceed the pin weight or the TV limitation.

On the 2009 long wheelbase 3500 GM specifies the king pin approximately 1.5 inches in front of the rear axel. This result is when you reach the GCV weight the front axel weight limit is reached before any other limitation is reached.

As I remember Ford specifies the king pin closer to the center of the rear axel but their 2009 350 rear axel didn’t have as high a weight limit as the GM product and Dodge was 1,500 less capacity than either the GM or Ford.

I am very cautious about exceeding the GCV weight or axel weights because in Florida if you are involved in a serious accident and you are over weight you are looking at a felony charge regardless of who is at fault in the accident.

All of the stated information is from memory and may have some errors but are correct in theory.

Definitions:

GCV = gross combination vehicle
Serious accident = one or more involved vehicles have to be towed from the scene.

Phil P

[Hooker]

As long as we are in a general discussion of weights, I'll throw out the correct formula for tow capacity...the GCWR minus the weight of the TV when ready to tow (loaded).

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by Hooker

As long as we are in a general discussion of weights, I'll throw out the correct formula for tow capacity...the GCWR minus the weight of the TV when ready to tow (loaded).

Well if that is the case tell me why the tow capacity for the receiver hitch is less than the tow capacity for the 5th wheel hitch but the Gross combination weight rating is the same?

Phil P

[Hooker]

GCWR has nothing to do with hitches. The definition I gave is for 5th wheels. For a pull behind you must add, "or the capacity of the hitch, whichever is less." Many motor homes have hitches only rated for 5,000# which can easily be exceeded, thus the phrase that must be added. BTW, you'll find the definition noted in my original post in most brochures and manuals although the manufacturers would much rather list their 'huge' tow capacity...which, if you do the numbers for 5th wheels, is with an empty truck...no pin weight or anything. Thus very deceiving.

[Phil P]

OK agreed.

The point I was making was you made a blanket statement that is not correct only because you did include the hitch type when you made the statement.

So my statement, which is included in the GM manuals, is correct.

GM states the when using a properly installed 5th wheel hitch if you don’t exceed the GCW rating or any axel rating you will not exceed any of the TV capacities(not an exact quote).

On the 2009 Duramax 3500 with a properly installed 5 th wheel hitch the limiting weight is the front axel. When you approach the GCW rating you approach the front axe maximum weight rating at the same time.

If you use a cargo trailer with 44,000 lb axels regardless of how you load the trailer as long as you don’t exceed the GCW rating or any axel weight rating you will not exceed the TV capacity.

So in relation to your statement we did just what you suggested.

When we decided to go with the 5th wheel trailer we went to the different dealers and determined the light duty, 2 wheel drive, dual rear wheel truck that had the highest GCW rating. This was the Duramax 3500 at 23,500 lbs. Then we had the truck weighed by the dealer. Then calculated the weight of the passengers, 2 adults and 2 dogs plus the weight of the fuel. As I remember we came up with a trailer max weight of about 15,500 lbs.

Then after purchase of the Montana and loading every thing we intended to travel with I went to the truck scales at Flying J.

The trailer weight was 15,020 Lbs. The gross combination weight was 22,840 Lbs. The TV front axel was within 100Lbs of its maximum weight rating and the rear axel was about 2,000 Lbs lighter than its maximum weight rating.

I weigh often and a year latter we had added 500 lbs to the trailer and lightened the truck load by 50 Lbs. The trailer weighed 15,530 Lbs and the gross combination weight was 23, 200 Lbs and the front axel was within about 10 lbs of its maximum weight rating and the rear axel was still about 1,800 lbs lighter than its maximum weight rating and the trailer was still below the axel ratings. All of the added trailer weight was in the front 24 inches of the basement.

Phil P

[richfaa]

Weights are fun. Remember about axle ratings. I use my truck as a example.Plug in your numbers. The truck GVWR is 13K and the axle ratings are 6K front and 9K rear..Wait that exceeds the GVWR..Right.. The axle numbers mean y0u can have a max of 6K on the front axle and 9K on the rear axle NOT not exceed the GVWR of 13K...

But wait...we forgot the tire rating.Mine are 2910 Dual use and 3195 Single wheel..Hey I have a dually so we are 2910 X4 = 11,640lbs on the rear axle..but no my rear axle is rated for 9K so the weight on the rear axle can not exceed 9K

How about the front tire rating that would be 2x3195= 6390..that is more than the front axle rating so we are confined by the tire ratings as well.

Oh if a single wheel rear you have 2X3195=6390lbs..holy moley that is way below the rear axle rating of 9K..

Now don't forget all those other calculations. See my post above.Now the numbers if done properly and understood do not lie. The issues is..do we understand them.

So the question will it pull it is a question of HP and torque, within ratings and specs is another story.

[southern thunder]

Now I am confused! LOL!!!!!!

[TLightning]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

Weights are fun. Remember about axle ratings. I use my truck as a example.Plug in your numbers. The truck GVWR is 13K and the axle ratings are 6K front and 9K rear..Wait that exceeds the GVWR..Right.. The axle numbers mean y0u can have a max of 6K on the front axle and 9K on the rear axle NOT not exceed the GVWR of 13K...

But wait...we forgot the tire rating.Mine are 2910 Dual use and 3195 Single wheel..Hey I have a dually so we are 2910 X4 = 11,640lbs on the rear axle..but no my rear axle is rated for 9K so the weight on the rear axle can not exceed 9K

How about the front tire rating that would be 2x3195= 6390..that is more than the front axle rating so we are confined by the tire ratings as well.

Oh if a single wheel rear you have 2X3195=6390lbs..holy moley that is way below the rear axle rating of 9K..

Now don't forget all those other calculations. See my post above.Now the numbers if done properly and understood do not lie. The issues is..do we understand them.

So the question will it pull it is a question of HP and torque, within ratings and specs is another story.

Exactly!

Then along comes the RV salesman who says, "whatever you have will pull whatever I'm selling just fine. F150/C1500 will handle his 23k Teton just fine."

[richfaa]

It is the responsibility of the buyer to do the homework and know and understand the ratings and spec,s of the product they will purchase. They are not hard to find but it does take time , effort and understanding. To unconditionally believe a salesperson or anything you may read on any forum is just plain stupid. It is the easy way out to blame a salesperson for the buyers lack of knowledge.

[seahunter]

quote:Originally posted by richfaa

It is the responsibility of the buyer to do the homework and know and understand the ratings and spec,s of the product they will purchase. They are not hard to find but it does take time , effort and understanding. To unconditionally believe a salesperson or anything you may read on any forum is just plain stupid. It is the easy way out to blame a salesperson for the buyers lack of knowledge.

I agree, but I also think a lot of the literature is very misleading. What really matters is the weakest link in the whole set-up as far as weight capacity. All the dealers look at is maximum tow capacity and tell you how much you can pull based on that high number. I am just still somewhat surprised after getting this camper certification that even with the 350 dually diesel, I don't have near the buffer I thought I would have. Dosn't really matter that the truck can pull 21,500 according to the brochure, if my pin weight is near the maximum of 3,700 pounds then that is the deciding factor if the trailer is within specs for towing. And I still can't see where they got the 5,990 pound payload in the brochure for my truck...

[Phil P]

Hi

We were lucky to get the plane jane Duramax 3500 and believe it or not the empty weight of the truck was very close to the brochure weight and that made the payload figure correct as well. Fortunately the plane jane truck has all of the “options” we would want as standard equipment.

Also after checking the 5th wheel hitch installation paper work I find several pages showing the placement of the hitch for different trucks. This shows the hitch placement for our truck to be the same as the manufacturers recommendation.

Phil P

[Phil P]

One thing I would like to point out.

The information published in this thread has a lot of correct information.

This makes you all very lucky.

I know class A CDL drivers that have no idea that when they purchase cheap tires they may be changing the weight rating for their rig.

Phil P

[richfaa]

Remember that information provided by the truck and Rv manufacturers is "marketing" they want you to buy their product and provide only positive information. Do you notice that on the TV commercials that every truck and car is marketed as "first in their class" How can they all be first in their class and folks believe that.

I never heard a truck or Rv dealer mention tire ratings or how thay relate to towing.The ratings are a limiting factor. Check the tire ratings on your 5th wheel then look at the axle rating.If you have 7K 5th wheel axles you should have a max tire load rating of 3500lbs...do you???

If you changed to LT tires Most E rated LT tires do not have that rating...That is why the manufacturer puts on ST tires..
Not because they are Chinese tires but because they meet the axle ratings.They are covering their butt.
There are LT tires that met the axle ratings...Did we do our home work and buy the correct tire???

Things to think about

[TLightning]

[/quote]
And I still can't see where they got the 5,990 pound payload in the brochure for my truck...
[/quote]

Most likely it's for the gasser. That's one of their favorite tricks, listing "max payload" for a gas engine that most of us don't want and the heavy diesel and trans subtract from the payload.

[Art-n-Marge]

Here's the things to remember. I don't know if this makes it easier to remember, but this is what works and what counts:

First, the only weights that count are the "maximum weight ratings" at ALL points, GVWR, CGVWR, RAWR, FAWR for a truck and GVWR, AWRs for a trailer, and then Ratings for ALL tire positions which will be half of each axle position (truck and trailer and they should be even side to side, but not necessarily front to back). These ratings WILL be impacted by the other positions. If ANY of the weights at those points are over the ratings, then you are overweight, PERIOD. You cannot match a maximum weight, the expect that another weight position has to lessen to stay under a gross or combined gross number.

Second, it does not matter what the shipping weight, curb weight, unladen weights, pin weights ratings are stated because those are only ESTIMATES, probably inflated or deflated to provide the best values, are probably never accurate and can be affected by TOO many other factors to be accurate. NEVER rely on those numbers except to estimate what you are working with. Sales people and hopeful owners that use these numbers for anything other than getting to the safety margins are asking for trouble.

Third, the ONLY way to know if you are weight compliant is to actually weigh your rig! Get to the scale and know what YOUR vehicle weighs when fully loaded at every wheel point. Hopefully the side to side ratings are not only under the max ratings, but you are balanced. Then use the correct math to verify the pin weight, and current weights of each axle, front and rear of both the trailer and the truck. If any of these are overweight, you are overweight, PERIOD.

While discussions on upgrading suspensions, having the best position for the hitch, adjusting the loads so balance is best front to back and side to side, or adding other equipment to improve the ride, or even realizing stuff MUST be removed are ways to help obtain the weight rating, but only certain things will increase your weight rating or lighten the loads.

Brochures are dreams, NEVER rely on them since what you do with your truck could be different than the brochure. They like to document the best number ever realized for their product, but this does not mean it works for everyone any more than the documented shipping weight or pin weight of the trailer when you buy it. My actual Monty weighed more than the brochure and after filling up my Monty with MY stuff, it was weigh off on the pin weight. But I was under the Gross weights and axle weights and while not completely balanced all around, all is good.

Another example, my brochure for the truck states than my F-250 could tow a 15,200 lb fifth wheel trailer, but this can only happen if my truck weighs 7,800 lbs when I'm doing that since I only have a 23,000 lb GCWVR. With the current weight of my truck at 8,100lbs, I would probably have to remove the physical truck bed and attach the hitch to the frame directly and that still might not be enough. Then I would have to make sure the pin weight is as light as possible to ensure the rear axle or gross weight are not exceeded. Don't laugh, I've seen this; a late model Ford (unknown specific model) with nothing but the basic frame behind the cab towing a large fifth wheel trailer, now that driver knows how to crunch his numbers and remove some weight. It looked funny but it sure made sense to me what he was trying to accomplish.

I hope this helps.