Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > General Discussions about our Montanas
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-16-2018, 08:34 AM   #1
rescue7
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Traverse City
Posts: 149
M.O.C. #15913
5th wheel front high

Ok been thinking about this and have not found any answers online.

If you 5th wheel is nose high would that put more weight on tow vehicle since in my thought the truck is pushing the front of the trailer up. Thus more pressure on truck which would increase pin weight.
So am I crazy? Ideas
 
rescue7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 08:52 AM   #2
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,134
M.O.C. #6433
Nose high would actually reduce the weight on the truck. Think about slowly tipping the trailer backward. The weight would be slowly shifted to the trailer axles until eventually all weight would be on the axles if you raised it high enough. Obviously you could not raise it that high without the rear hitting the ground, but you can visualize the principle.

However, running slightly nose high on the truck would have no real measurable shift in weight.
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
BB_TX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 08:52 AM   #3
Phil P
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Okeechobee
Posts: 2,150
M.O.C. #11206
Hi

I just weighed a 5th wheel (not a Keystone) and Dodge 3500 SRW to determine why the trailer was steering the truck.

The weighing had nothing to do with your question but in the process of weighing the truck & trailer then the truck then the trailer I would guess in your configuration the weight transfer would be to the trailer axles.

I would further guess that it wouldn’t be a great deal of weight.

FYI the result of the above trailer problem was the king pin was located aft of the centerline of the rear axle of the truck due to the type of hitch being changed without moving the bed rails.

We corrected the towing problem by filling the potable water tank that is located in front of the axles and that corrected the problem. It just can’t be towed without water in the potable water tank.

Phil P
__________________
2009 Montana 3665RE
2009 Duramax 3500 DRW quad cab
personal web page https://www.sallyscoffees.com
If you get a page not available then remove the "s" after HTTP
Phil P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 09:33 AM   #4
prndl
Montana Master
 
prndl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 1000 oaks
Posts: 949
M.O.C. #19630
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_TX View Post
Nose high would actually reduce the weight on the truck. Think about slowly tipping the trailer backward. The weight would be slowly shifted to the trailer axles until eventually all weight would be on the axles if you raised it high enough. Obviously you could not raise it that high without the rear hitting the ground, but you can visualize the principle.

However, running slightly nose high on the truck would have no real measurable shift in weight.
???????

If running nose high then more weight is transferred to the rear axle. This also shifts the pivot point rearward and puts more weight from the rear axle forward.

For example, if you could balance a trailer on the two axles, if you tried to lift the trailer tongue it would not get lighter as you lifted but heavier as the balance/pivot point would shift rearward. Think of a teeter totter.
__________________
2011 2955RL Gen-Y Executive Kingpin
2022 GMC 2500HD Duramax/Alison
4X4 Crew Cab/Standard bed.
prndl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 11:14 AM   #5
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
Would running nose high not put more pressure on the tires and cause them to wear faster.
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 12:19 PM   #6
rescue7
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Traverse City
Posts: 149
M.O.C. #15913
That was my thought if level less weight than if pushing up. I am about 2 inches high. already have hitch as low as it can go. Moving pin box up only other option, but dont want to ge to close to truck box.
rescue7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 12:32 PM   #7
twindman
Montana Master
 
twindman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mesa az
Posts: 2,926
M.O.C. #5651
I have the same problem with nose high. New(er) truck is 1 1/2 inches higher at bed, plus in their infinite wisdom, GM raised the rails an inch. So I can't lower the hitch since I am already at around 6 inches to rails. I don't think they consider actual users when designing the trucks!
__________________

Tom and Gail
2013 Mountaineer 362
2012 Silverado 2500
twindman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 02:35 PM   #8
BB_TX
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: McKinney
Posts: 7,134
M.O.C. #6433
Quote:
Originally Posted by rescue7 View Post
That was my thought if level less weight than if pushing up........
As the front rises the center of gravity shifts toward the rear. As the COG shifts to the rear the weight likewise shifts toward the rear.
The hitch is not pushing up. It is just sitting there supporting what is sitting on it.
__________________
Bill & Patricia
Riley, our Golden
2007 3075RL (recently sold, currently without)
BB_TX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 02:51 PM   #9
MARK A
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: STAYTON
Posts: 1,118
M.O.C. #18157
Quote:
Originally Posted by prndl View Post
???????

If running nose high then more weight is transferred to the rear axle. This also shifts the pivot point rearward and puts more weight from the rear axle forward.

For example, if you could balance a trailer on the two axles, if you tried to lift the trailer tongue it would not get lighter as you lifted but heavier as the balance/pivot point would shift rearward. Think of a teeter totter.
^^
This!

Mark
MARK A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 02:51 PM   #10
prndl
Montana Master
 
prndl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 1000 oaks
Posts: 949
M.O.C. #19630
We're talking about a fulcrum. As more weight is transferred to the rear axle a greater proportion of the total weight is being born by the part forward of the rear axle.
__________________
2011 2955RL Gen-Y Executive Kingpin
2022 GMC 2500HD Duramax/Alison
4X4 Crew Cab/Standard bed.
prndl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 06:30 PM   #11
masterdrago
Montana Master
 
masterdrago's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Willis
Posts: 896
M.O.C. #20587
Mine is nose high - 1-2 inches. When we did weigh in, the rear axle had slightly higher weight than front ~350#. I took it as a sign to redistribute some of the "stuff".
__________________
2018 Montana 3791RD (SOLD)
2017 Ram 3500 DRW 6.7 Cummins Aisin, B&W RVK3600 (SOLD)
masterdrago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 10:04 PM   #12
Dam Worker
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: West Richland
Posts: 1,253
M.O.C. #17164
I really can't say about the weight on the truck axle but I certainly would think your rear trailer axle is going to be carrying more weight. Go to a scale and weight the truck rear axle and the put blocks under the trailer tires until your trailer is level and then recheck your trucks rear axle. That should resolve any questions.

Tom Marty
__________________
Dam Worker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2018, 11:55 AM   #13
bshgto
Montana Master
 
bshgto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Hagerstown
Posts: 862
M.O.C. #16013
an alternative

Not sure why on one can get there head around this method of lowering the nose for a more level ride. It works ,cheap, removable, doesn't effect the ride loaded or unloaded, takes 2 wrenches and an hour of time.
If you have no options left to get the nose down just lower the truck. Mine like most trucks comes with a bit of a rake.......just remove part of the rake and you start lower to begin with, the compression to the over load springs does not change your just lower at the same rate of compression. these shackles have been used for years in the truck lower market.
I put these on to lower the truck 2 inches and raised the camper 1 inch with aluminum blocks under the springs that are sold as a raising method for trucks and I`m level. Some people tend to get excited about raising the camper with blocks at all cause they fear increased instability but the Correct Tract alignment system that comes on a lot of campers as a stock component raises your camper 2 inches with no ill effects. Of course that would work to but at a much greater cost.
The shackles $45.00, Blocks about $20.00, Correct Tract about $300.00 for 2 axles
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	410520.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	16.1 KB
ID:	1368  
Attached Images
   
__________________
2018.5 3791 Rear Den Montana, on the lake no 3rd A/C, Mini Split, just do it
Electric Brakes ..... Disk Brakes, it`s the only way
F350 Ford Dually 4:10`s w/bags (payload 5595 lbs) Sumo Springs 63 gal aux tank
Reese Goosebox Mor/Ryde SRE 4000 X Factors Monroe shocks.... real smooth ride
bshgto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2018, 01:29 PM   #14
Phil P
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Okeechobee
Posts: 2,150
M.O.C. #11206
Quote:
Originally Posted by prndl View Post
???????

If running nose high then more weight is transferred to the rear axle. This also shifts the pivot point rearward and puts more weight from the rear axle forward.

For example, if you could balance a trailer on the two axles, if you tried to lift the trailer tongue it would not get lighter as you lifted but heavier as the balance/pivot point would shift rearward. Think of a teeter totter.

Hi

You are partially correct but only in reference to tandem axles.

Us the example of a single axle trailer with the axle mounted in the middle of the trailer. The higher you lift the front the lighter it gets until you reach a balance point or the rear of the trailer touches the ground.

A trailer with tandem axles the suspension does the same thing as a single axle trailer until you reach the limit of the bogie in between the 2 axles.

So the initial lift of the front of the trailer will cause a weight transfer to the trailer axles and the front would get lighter.

But again a lift of 2 or 3 inches will not reduce the weight at the front very much and may not even be evident using a truck scale.

Phil P
__________________
2009 Montana 3665RE
2009 Duramax 3500 DRW quad cab
personal web page https://www.sallyscoffees.com
If you get a page not available then remove the "s" after HTTP
Phil P is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.