BLACK/GREY water sensors - Montana Owners Club

RLVoumard · 08-15-2006, 01:55 AM

Did I read where some folks are using fab softener in their holding tanks ?? Is this for order also what seems to work best in the tanks to keep the sensors working ??

Glenn and Lorraine · 08-15-2006, 03:10 AM

Some folks use Calgon as you will see as this thread progress' but here is my outlook on those pesky sensors....

Forget the gauges/sensors. Get yourself a system and get on with the RV life.
Forget the ice and dragging the rig around, forget the Pine Sol, forget the Calgon, forget all the additives and gimmicks about trying to clean the tanks sensors. While all these additives and gimmicks may or may not work and even when they do work, one thing is sure, in a short time you will be right back to a full tank even though you just dumped it. Imagine That!
We just gave up on the gauges and developed a system.
Get into the habit of dumping AS NEEDED and get on with life!
What is dumping as needed?? Believe me you'll learn at which point to dump and your RV life will become so much easier.

patodonn · 08-15-2006, 04:43 AM

Absolutely agree with Glenn and Lorraine...we go about 7 days, maybe 8, betweeen black tank dump requirements. You just gotta listen (and sometimes look) as you flush. We always dump and flush before traveling (except after a one or two day stay). We always dump the grey (bath) water and the kitchen water tanks before traveling, even after a couple of days...no reason to haul that extra water weight around.

I haven't looked at one of those sensors in two years, and we've tried all the Forum suggestions....made no significant difference. Nothing more worthless than a guage you can't trust or worse, one that lies to you.

Really highly recommend adding a gate valve at the discharge end of your dump line. Get a clear plastic barrel section on it. That way, with that valve closed, you can interconnect (open) both of the grey water tanks to equalize them if one gets full before the other. Don't do the "interconnect" until one of the grey tanks is actually full...then you know that you are getting close to the required dump time. If you are staying a week or more someplace, and you have to move to dump the tanks, it gives you an extra day or two before dumping is really necessary. Never use the black tank in any intermix procedure, for sanitary reasons.

PJ, Nan and Scooter
3655FL
'99 Dodge Diesel 2500, BD auto trans, pwr chip, Pac brake, Bielsen shocks, Banks Exhaust.

gkbutler · 08-15-2006, 06:02 AM

Haven't looked at the sensors since we bought the Monty. Like Glenn and PJ and doubtlessly the others who will follow, just find yourself a system that works for you and run with it. We flush when the stool bubbles at us and every couple of days for the the grey and galley tanks. Works great and no problems.

Gary and Karen
SFC USAR Ret.
MOC (4049)
2006 2950RK
2005 Chev 2500HD Duramax/Allison SB
16K Pull rite Super Glide
Prodigy brake controller

"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you did not do than by the things you did, so throw off the bow lines, sail away from safe harbor and catch the trade winds in your sails." Mark Twain

RLVoumard · 08-15-2006, 08:43 AM

During a stay where you have FULL HOOK UPS - I would assume that the TANKS ARE ALWAYS DUMPING ?? Correct ?

richfaa · 08-15-2006, 09:38 AM

"During a stay where you have FULL HOOK UPS - I would assume that the TANKS ARE ALWAYS DUMPING ?? Correct ?" Not sure what you mean by that..When you are on full hook ups you DO NOT direct dump the black tanks..you allow them to fill, then dump.Direct dumping is NOT a good thing and I do agree with the others about the sensors. You can , in most cases keep them functional,,it requires a lot of dumping and flushing and dumping and flushing, Etc and most folks fell it is not worth the time and effort. It is another one of those RV vendor things..Sensors have not worked properly for years..everyones knows that,,but we still have the same old defective sensors installed..It is something that we put up with and I for one do not understand why. We , thus far , have kept our sensors functional in all of out Campers..don't know how long that will last with long timing coming up????

Rich& Helen N.Ridgeville,Ohio.

F-350SD, Lariat, V-10,4:30 Diff, tow command Long bed, Crew Cab Dually, 06 3400RL
Mor-Ryde Pin Box

RLVoumard · 08-15-2006, 10:03 AM

OK- Now I am really confused. Why would you not DIRECT DUMP ??

richfaa · 08-15-2006, 10:47 AM

I assume you meant that you would leave the black tank valve open, allow waste to fall directly into the black tank, out the open black tank valve and into the C.G dump pipe If that is what you meant...No, No, No, I will let others describe the effect of doing that..I am about to eat supper....

Rich& Helen N.Ridgeville,Ohio.

F-350SD, Lariat, V-10,4:30 Diff, tow command Long bed, Crew Cab Dually, 06 3400RL
Mor-Ryde Pin Box

RLVoumard · 08-15-2006, 10:53 AM

OK --- I will wait to hear, I assumed that if you had an opportunity to JUST LEAVE THE VALVE OPEN while at a park, you would do so. PLEASE EXPLAIN

richfaa · 08-15-2006, 11:04 AM

Ok...Here goes,agghhhh..There will not be enough water to flush the waste out of the tank with every use. The result is waste will collect in the tank and there will be a big mess and a real bad smell and you will wind up with what is known as " the pyramid" and I don't mean the kind in Egypt.You need to let the black tank fill, use plenty of water with each use, them dump and flush..Others will elaborate I am sure.. There went dinner...

Rich& Helen N.Ridgeville,Ohio.

F-350SD, Lariat, V-10,4:30 Diff, tow command Long bed, Crew Cab Dually, 06 3400RL
Mor-Ryde Pin Box

Montana Sky · 08-15-2006, 11:37 AM

If you keep your black tank open while hooked up to sewer, what will happen is your "liquid" waste will drain out of the tank. The problem is the "solid" waste, if there is no water/liquid in the tank, the solids will sit on the bottom of your tank. The black tank needs the help of chemicals (thetfords campchem) to break down the solid waste into a liquid form. When your black tank is full of both liquid and broken down solids, you will then empty the tank. The liquid and gravity will take over from there and flush your tank clean of all waste. Once that is done, I follow up with the black tank flush to make sure the tank is clean and ready for the next round. Hope this answers your question and does not confuse you more...

2004 Chevy Silverado LT 2500HD CrewCab Duramax
2004 Montana 3400RL

Glenn and Lorraine · 08-15-2006, 11:53 AM

Rich is correct. I don't even leave the gray or galley tanks direct dump even during the winter when I am in one location for 6 months.

As far as the black tank, the "pyramid" is one problem and the other is a "loaded" sewer hose. As there is no real force behind behind the black waste it will also collect in the hose. You'll try to lift it and it will feel like a huge log. Once the hose is full it will back up into the black tank and if left unchecked it will totally fill the Black tank and that will make it near impossible to clear. Never open the BLACK valve with less than 2/3s of a tank, 3/4 would be better and full even better yet. If you must dump the black with less than 2/3s than use your flush valve to add more water to the still closed tank. Once the tank has the sufficient amount you can open the valve and dump. Now if you had kept the Gray and Galley tanks closed rather than the "direct" dump you can use this waste water to flush out the sewer hose.

The Wind · 08-15-2006, 12:22 PM

Why don't the makers of RV's have the gray tank flush thru the black tank to help with the flushing of the "matter"? I would think this would help with the "cleaning" of the black tank.

Richard and Cindy 02 F250 Diesel leading the way for a 05 3670RL.

rickety · 08-15-2006, 12:25 PM

Don't use those !$%#@ sensors, they're worthless. I dump like Glenn and Lorraine, you get to know when it is time.

Don't leave valves open and direct dump, leaves a neat little "pyramid" that is not so easy to get rid of.

I always try to dump blreck and then flush with kitchen tanks and then flush that with the grey water anks, as there is bound to be bits and pieces stuck in the hose fromt he kitchen tanks and the grey water will surely flush it out!

[IMG] http://tinypic.com/j8lbg9
.jpg[/IMG]
Rick and Phyllis Trent,
2004 Chevrolet 2500HD/Duramax/Allison,exhaust brake.
2004 Monty 3280RL/slide toppers,sleep comfort bed. Full Timers since January 2006!
Gizmo the dog who thinks he's a Great Dane

sreigle · 08-15-2006, 04:51 PM

We were just told by the Keystone Service Center to use Pine Sol or similar product. They wrote it right on the work form they gave us and also told me verbally. We use Calgon not for the sensors but to help clean out the tank. We've only done it once or twice and Keystone told us to do it more often. For what it's worth. We will be doing it more often.

Those solids that collect in the black tank also will solidify if there's no liquid and then it's like cement. It will not likely ever all come out. It's best to not dump until the tank is at least half full. Use the black tank flush to add water if needed. Or, if you'll be on the road, you can probably safely dump at the end of your journey as the solids sloshing around in the liquid will have "pureed" and will easily dump.

We also gave up on the sensors long ago and learned to tell when the tanks need dumping.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

Our RV Travels (now Firefox-compatible)

richfaa · 08-15-2006, 05:34 PM

Steve..We have used Calgon or other water softeners for years..but what is the rational for the pine sol or similar product..is it to control odor?? makes sense..We seldom use the chemicals not because they don't work but because to this point , we have been weekenders and the chemicals just do not have enough time to work in a couple of days..to me a waste of money.We have used various off the shelf good smelling things to control odor..Does Pine sol have any other benefits besides odor control??? It also sounds like as we begin long timing we will be joining the "forget the sensors" bunch.

Rich& Helen N.Ridgeville,Ohio.

F-350SD, Lariat, V-10,4:30 Diff, tow command Long bed, Crew Cab Dually, 06 3400RL
Mor-Ryde Pin Box

patodonn · 08-15-2006, 05:44 PM

Simple answer...No, we don't "direct dump" (leave any of the three valves open to the sewer line.)

In excessive detail, and just to confuse the issue a bit more...here's how we do it...

First, all of the above from Montana Sky is absolutely correct, IMHO, re the black tank.

Now, re the other two tanks.... we leave those valves closed until after dumping the black tank. After dumping, flushing and re-filling the black tank with clear water using the flush system, we dump it again. Maybe do the whole dump, flush, re-fill cycle a third time. When that's all completed, we add about 3-4 gal of fresh water, also using the the flush system. AFTER THAT, we then dump the water from the gally tank and close it, then the water from the grey water tank and close it. Both of those help flush the dump and sewer lines after the black tank dumping is completed. When all three valves are closed, you are ready for another week or to travel for a couple of days.

If, for some reason, we need to dump either the galley or grey water tank sooner than the black tank, we dump it partialy, so as to have "rinse" water available when we do dump the black tank later.

Fortunately, it is well after dinner time as I write this...

PJ, Nan and Scooter
3655FL
'99 Dodge Diesel 2500, BD auto trans, pwr chip, Pac brake, Bielsen shocks, Banks Exhaust.

gkbutler · 08-16-2006, 04:30 AM

When we bought our first self contained unit several years ago, it was sitting on the very site we are now on, and had been sitting for about seven years. Both valves were in the open position. Know where this is headed? We had a fairly large get together with friends on Labor Day weekend and found out that the black tank was filling up way too fast. Flushed and flushed and still had the problem. The next year, we still had the same problem. At our wit's end, we put chemical in the tank to dissolve the solids; filled the tank up with water and let her sit for about two weeks. When we came back out, we stuck an old garden hose in the black tank and let her run. Opened the valve and OHHHHH the mess that came out of the tank. About seven years worth of yuck! Took over two hours before the tank was running completely clear. Like the others have said, when you leave the valves open, all of the liquid goes out and the solids remain. Then you have the problems we had. Dump at least weekly, and you don't have that problem any more.

We learned a really valuable lesson. We never leave the valves open.

Gary and Karen
SFC USAR Ret.
MOC (4049)
2006 2950RK
2005 Chev 2500HD Duramax/Allison SB
16K Pull rite Super Glide
Prodigy brake controller

"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you did not do than by the things you did, so throw off the bow lines, sail away from safe harbor and catch the trade winds in your sails." Mark Twain

sreigle · 08-16-2006, 05:40 AM

Rich, I'm not sure what the rationale is except it was immediately after the statement they'd cleaned a lot of "stuff" out of the black tank (I had dumped immediately before they took it in) so assume it is to make things slide out the dump valve easier??

I didn't tell them but I suspect the stuff on the bottom was leftover from our "dreaded pyramid" episode last Winter when I was in preparation for a colonscopy.

I didn't want to go into the gory details with them.

Now my curiosity is up. From the Pine Sol website:

----
What are the ingredients in Original Pine-Sol® Brand Cleaner?
This product contains pine oil and cleaning agents called surfactants.

----

Since a surfactant reduces surface tension I guess it serves to make things slide more easily. That would make sense. I'll have to check to see if Pine Sol is cheaper than Calgon, per use. Also it metions Pine Sol is good for odor control but I don't know how well that would work for black tank odors in the summer. Might be worth a try since it could maybe replace both chemicals and calgon. The website says it is safe for septic systems.

I forgot to say earlier we do direct dump the shower tank when the washer is running. Otherwise, on about the third load, it overflows the shower, soaks the carpet, floods the basement, runs out of the basement and down our site, and gets the neighbors all excited. Been there.

See another Montana or Mountaineer on the road? Flash lights twice, it might be one of us!
Steve Reigle (pronounced Regal)
Fulltiming since 3/21/03
'03 3295RK
'05 Ford F250 SD Lariat CC SB 6.0L PSD/TS FX4 4x4

Our RV Travels (now Firefox-compatible)

richfaa · 08-16-2006, 05:47 AM

Steve..Thanks for the research..Will have to check the price Calgon vs Pine -sol. Sounds like it could be a one product replaces many thing..

Rich& Helen N.Ridgeville,Ohio.

F-350SD, Lariat, V-10,4:30 Diff, tow command Long bed, Crew Cab Dually, 06 3400RL
Mor-Ryde Pin Box

You may also like: