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Old 10-01-2005, 04:12 PM   #1
mobilrvn
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Any suggestions in resolving this issue with Keyst

We have a 2004 3575 Montana which we bought new. Initially we had some minor problems with our 5W, mostly poor workmanship things or bad supplier items, which our dealer repaired or attempted to repair. The second trip for minor fixes resulted in still a couple of do overs--creaky steps and leaky bathroom drain.

On our way to the JazzFest in New Orleans where we had made arrangements to get about eight items repaired before our warranty ran out, all hell broke loose and we were afflicted with the dreaded "frame flex". Wanted the dealer who was going to fix our few items to see if it would be safe to travel and what fix could be made--he ended up just blowing us off two days before the appointment. It was another three weeks before we could find a dealer in Valdosta to take us in. They had our rig for nine days to survey, get instructions and parts from Keystone and then fix it. Several days were spent dealing with Keystone which didn't ship parts, shipped wrong stuff, etc. The dealer was busy, but wanted to take care of us and send us on the way--they weren't the problem. They complained about the way Keystone conducts its warranty business. Therefore, they got us an appointment with the factory and sent us on our way--the temporary fix didn't work. The entire 5W was just coming apart. When we got to Valdosta our list was 28 items plus the frame problem. Each stop we added another one or two items to the list. The walls were falling down and being stressed apart like pizza dough.

By the time we got to the factory, our list was up to 48 items plus the frame/wall problem. The customer service folks were regularily updated on our way there so they knew what all the problems were well before we arrived including the list FAXed from the Valdosta dealer which included a new countertop that broke under the flexing. Lots of requests for information when ignored--like how do you get to the repair facility.

I marked all the items needing repairs with red tape and a 3 x 5 card, explaining the problem--even with that some items were missed. They spend three plus days fixing it and overall did a fair job, but had to come back a few days later since they didn't have the countertop although they knew about it for three months. They did a very poor job in installing the countertop. They kinked the hose to the faucet, cracked the base for the support posts, installed one of the posts upsidedown and did a bad job on the caulking. Also a drawer crossbar was replaced badly and later broke, causing the drawer to fall and break. I recaulked the countertop, repaired the drawer and crossbar.

Because of all the flexing and the way everything was coming apart, I was greatly concerned about things which could have been broken or stress where they weren't seen. Talked to John Armstrong (pretty sure that was his name) and he assured me that everything that came in for repairs was warrantied for 90 days after they were done and it covered anything that was related to the original damages. Asked me if I wanted that in writing and I said no, since Keystone would have to approved it anyway, so if I couldn't trust them what good would it do. Wish that I had something in writing to take to an attorney now.

In addition to the kitchen problems, the steps still creaked (4th complaint), the shower drain still leaked (also 4th complaint), the airconditioner CB needed replacing and wasn't, there is a rattle under the sofa area and the replacement flashligh had just died. Not a big list and all were items which had been repaired at the factory. I had emailed Goshen asking them to send a new base and crossbar to our dealer here before our appointment.

When we got to our dealer and the service manager called Keystone, and they denied that we had any warranty. Lots of explainations to the service manager about what had happened there. (Our dealer gives a 90 warranty on their work)t I called customer relations and finally some things started to move after five hours! Upshot of it was that a person named Bob Hanson only would approve three items and not logic regarding the ones he chose: the flashight, the creaky stairs and the propane regulator. I called him to find out what was going on with our claim and he was extremely rude and arrogant. Told me that he only spoke to dealers and not customers and that everything was our dealers fault. He was mad that I had been given his phone number. Talk about being angry, if I could have reached into the phone, he would be speaking in a higher voice.

Before this conversation, the dealer (service mgr) told me of the problems that dealers have with Keystone and to be fair, other mfgrs. The factory wants the dealers to commit to an amount of time for repairs and won't pay them for any overage. Our shower drain problem wasn't fixed properly by the factory and they build them! There could be many factors which could cause the leak and they may all have to be tested, so realize why they can't specify a set time frame. In the meantime, we are currently out on a limb without authoriztion to repair faulty factory fixes and poor workmanship. It wasn't our fault that they screwed up. We have spent time and money--gas ain't free, and still need rightful repairs.

Think that Keystone needs an ombudsman to cut through all the BS and give fair customer service. I guarantee you that we will never purchase another Keystone product after this shabby treatment and will never recommend anyone else purchase one.
 
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Old 10-01-2005, 04:49 PM   #2
lightningjack11
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Wow!

Sorry Mobilrvn. Wish I could suggest something.
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Old 10-01-2005, 05:20 PM   #3
tollmann
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WOW Your experience with the Montana repair facility is exactly the opposite of what we had. Lon Nelson, the head of service, was extremely helpful in getting our unit repaired. The service writer, Darrell Turner, found slight frame flex on our unit that we didn't even know about. We have an appointment set up to have this fixed at the factory. We were there for the Great Lakes Rally and a number of us had things taken care of. I didn't talk to anyone that was not satisfied. I am amazed at what happened to you. Good luck with your unit.
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Old 10-01-2005, 05:37 PM   #4
Just148
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Sorry to hear of the problems listed here, I would subjest that you speak with some one higher up...If that doesn't work call some one who cares....A Law Er.........
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:40 PM   #5
patodonn
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First, I heartily agree that Keystone, and most large organizations need an "ombudsman" for situations like yours.

I have a couple of suggestions. First, you said: " Talked to John Armstrong (pretty sure that was his name) and he assured me that everything that came in for repairs was warrantied for 90 days after they were done and it covered anything that was related to the original damages."

Did the "factory" actually do your work? or was it done by one of the local RV repair folks under sub-contract? Can't you get back to that guy, directly? Is he actually a Keystone representative, or from a local (Goshen) RV repair facility? That is where the issue(s) should be resolved.

Second, I think any comments by a dealer re the Mfg should be considered, but not taken at face value. Although you and I are impacted by that specific relationship, it isn't my battle, as the Customer. I can see lots of good logic of the "other side" of the issue. I'm sure Keystone can relate a multitude of stories about being billed for 3 hrs of labor to do a job listed for 1 hour which really only took 20 min to do by an experienced RV tech. There has to be some flexibility in the numbers game, but it works both ways.

Did you actually call Customer Service, of did the Dealer call and then hand you the phone? That may explain how you got the "Ron Hanson" individual. That part of your narration makes no sense to me, based on my past dealings with Keystone.

I would suggest getting back to the "John Armstrong" individual first via phone and take it from there.

JMHO
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:41 PM   #6
Garin1
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Documentation is the key, take notes of everything said if they will not give it in writing. Sorry to hear about your bad Experience. I have dealt with Keystone for years without any troubles. My last experience was with a Couger. It was out of warrenty for almost a year when the living room slide buckled. I was ready for a BIG bill for the repair but when I picked it up the dealer told me Keystone covered the whole thing. Merrily I went on my way.
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Old 10-02-2005, 01:30 AM   #7
Bill and Ann
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Suggest that you get Jeff (Montana VP) involved. I am sure someone has his number.
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Old 10-02-2005, 02:59 AM   #8
Glenn and Lorraine
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mobilrvn there is not much I can suggest other than what was previously mentioned and that is to keep working with the Keystone Customer Service people. You would be the absolute exception if they did NOT get you totally satisfied. Call them at (574) 535-2100 DO NOT EMAIL them. Above all else, BE CALM COOL and COLLECTED when talking to them. If you go off in a rage it is not going to help your cause. You draw more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.

Now if you want to shut down all further direct Keystone communication than go with the suggestion of Just148 and Patodonn and mention that you will be contacting a lawyer. Once that is said they will refer you to their legal department and any hope of a quick fix will be gone. Most large corporations policy is if you mention "lawyer" or "law suit" or even "Law Er" or "ombudsman" they will cut you off from any further communication and immediately turn you over to their legal eagles and Keystone is no exception to this policy.

Now if all else fails, using that same phone number contact Jeff Rank. Jeff is the VP at Montana and will get you thru this.
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Old 10-02-2005, 03:26 AM   #9
CountryGuy
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Agree with Glenn, keep working with Keystone. Honey is a great way to go!

Our problems have not been as serious as yours, but, axles and bald tires, etc, is sorta serious, yes?? Also had a slide problem, took 3 trips back to Goshen, this last time they really did fix it good! We are very pleased. Lon is a great guy, when I called him after the first fix did not work, his only question was, "When do you want to bring it in?". OH, it was shreadding the carpet, he did ask one thing of me, "DON'T bring me those carpet pieces, have seen them before (snicker from Lon)!" I promised him I would not, and I did not! HAHA.

When the 2nd fix did not work either and caused some damage, I wrote email to the service center, and sent a photo, and they wrote right back. I told them I would call for an appointment, but that we had a family emergency and that I just wanted them to see the damage as soon as we discovered it, and that I knew they would help us out. And, they did. They wrote me back and said, call us when you have this family emergency out of the way, we will get you in.

When our lives quieted down I called, they scheduled, they greeted us upon our THIRD arrival at the service center with kindness and open arms.

As far as having trouble getting directions to the service center, that is a bit surprising to me, course, that place is not the easiest place to find the first time around. In fact, we were draggin Montana around Goshen (the first time to the service center) and could not find it. I picked up the cell phone, gave em a call. The guy that answered asked me where I was, and gave me directions, stayed ON the phone, talked me right to the front door, where he was standing on his cordless phone watching for me!

Sorry, but your experience does not sound like ours. This situation, of what one feels was great service from Keystone and others feel slighted by Keystone, has been discussed here before. Have no idea why this happens, but, we are all humans and some of us have a bad day here and there. I think the WHY it happens is not the important thing here, but the HOW DO I GET RESOLVED is the important thing.

Do what Glenn suggests, calmly call the service center again. We all know the angst of having something wrong with our units, we feel for ya. Good luck.
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Old 10-02-2005, 04:23 AM   #10
lightningjack11
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Make the calls.

But what the heck. Go ahead and e-mail Jeff.

rank,jeff@keystonerv.com

He really needs to bang heads on this.
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Old 10-02-2005, 05:36 AM   #11
richfaa
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I would be straining at the leash to get a good attorney, and we have some good ones in the family, HOWEVER..unless you have all the time in the world it is NOT a good idea. The odds are that you will win but you may be to old to camp by that time.Go for the highest level at keystone , even Thor, the parent company..again..HOWEVER..You must have good documentation, Pictures, Etc.Even my best friend and a Philadelphia Lawyer(he lives there) would not take a your word Vs their word case.

We will be keeping a picture and documentation journal of everything in relation to our Montana Purchase (just in case)
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Old 10-02-2005, 06:11 AM   #12
tbhd
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mobilrvn

Sorry to hear about all your problems. A lot of good advice here and really hope things work out for you. Good luck and keep us posted. We are all interested and hoping for a quick resolve for you. Good luck.
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Old 10-02-2005, 06:31 AM   #13
patodonn
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Did I say anything about a lawyer? Don't think so...that's my idea of an absolute useless and "no win" stratagy. I agree with Rich as to the probable outcome. Just didn't want to get tarred with that brush. In most situations, I view that as a suicide bombing effort, unless enlisted in defense against some other lawyer coming after you.

Keystone doesn't have an ombudsman, at least I don't think they do. If they did, that would be a Keystone management Exec set up specifically to resolve issues, such as this one, after all lower levels of management have failed. That is at least three levels away from where you are right now, even if they DID have that capability. An ombudsman is to a lawyer what a Fisheries Manager is to a barracuda.

Good luck...talk to "John Armstrong" AND Jeff Rank in a reasoned and calm manner. I think it will work out.

Best,
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Old 10-02-2005, 07:17 AM   #14
Thunderman
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Mobilrvn,
Sorry to hear of all the problems your having. If your list was cut in half, that would still be far to many problems. Good luck.

Weldon
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Old 10-02-2005, 10:51 AM   #15
mobilrvn
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We thank everyone for their advice regarding our situation with Montana. All the repairs were done in Montana's facility in Goshen. Lon Nelson was the service manager and Darrell Turner was the service writer. Darrell has gone out of his way to be helpful, but we're still hanging out to dry as of this date. John Armstrong works in that office and guessing where his desk is, must be a higher ranking employee. I got Bob Hanson's number from the Montana folks. Regardless of where I got his phone number, I am a customer and didn't need to be treated like a piece of crap by him. He should try to help, not be a roadblock.

We have literally used a lot of sugar--we bought dozens of donuts, etc. for the Montana repair folks while we were there. As mad as we have been, it has been difficult not to cut loose, but we have been very civilized about it---maybe too much so.

If anyone has a number for Jeff Rank who I guess is the general manager, I would appreciate it. Perhaps he might be more interested in his company's customer relations. Getting a lawyer would cost me more even with winning. We don't have the time or energy which I am sure Keystone counts on. Warranty work is part of the contract and part of the price of every purchase.
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Old 10-02-2005, 12:05 PM   #16
snowbunny
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Sorry to hear of all your repeated problems. Montana has a reputation for standing behind their product. I would continue to talk to Montana and escalate your concerns up to Jeff Rank. I am sure he will want to know who is giving the poor service that will destroy Montana's hard won reputation for good support.

Sometimes I get really excited to think of the new 3400 we hope to get next year to replace our 1999 3350RS which we know, use and love. It may be old and lacking many of the bells and whistles that Montana adds every year, but it is rock solid and just keeps going. Do we really want to give it up and take our chances with a new unit that may be a lemon?

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Old 10-02-2005, 12:58 PM   #17
lightningjack11
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Same here snowbunny. I hate to give up my little Monty which has really been good for something unknown. I would like to see Montana come out with a two year warranty. It is hard to find and correct the problems within a year. So I guess I will just keep mine and keep making minor repairs.
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Old 10-03-2005, 10:00 AM   #18
sreigle
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Mobilrvn, I agree with you that this needs to be brought to the attention of someone who can get some action. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
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Old 10-03-2005, 12:24 PM   #19
Glenn and Lorraine
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mobilrvn

If anyone has a number for Jeff Rank who I guess is the general manager, I would appreciate it. Perhaps he might be more interested in his company's customer relations. Getting a lawyer would cost me more even with winning. We don't have the time or energy which I am sure Keystone counts on. Warranty work is part of the contract and part of the price of every purchase.
Jeff Rank's number is the same as Customer Service 574) 535-2100

Also Jeff is the Vice President of Montana. If he can't help you no one can.
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Old 10-03-2005, 04:44 PM   #20
padredw
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Send a message via Skype™ to padredw
Tell Jeff "Hello" from all of us on the Forum, and tell him we will all be waiting to hear how well he takes care of you.

And be sure and let us know the outcome.
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