legal towing wieghts?

[dfb]

Originally Posted by Eagleback

You are ok until your not, like in an accident if its your fault or maybe not. Insurance company's might deny claim, legal problems like being sued or fined. Tickets cost money along with negligence. And god help you if you killed or severely injure others.

No insurance company will deny a claim for weight, nor if a driver is driving dui, or speed contest, or going too fast, have bald tires, bad brakes etc.. Can we imagine all the ways an insurance carrier would weazle out of payind a claim?.a dui may get you dropped and require special insurance like an sr-22.. Anyone can be sued for anything. God help anyone who kills another, however, accidents do happen all the time..Life is risk and we all assume that risk anytime we go outside..

[dfb]

Originally Posted by CADman_KS

Not to throw fuel onto the fire, but I was following a YouTube video recently about a guy who owns a business. He was pulling a trailer with his 2500 HD 2020 GMC, and got pulled over. The officer told him that since it was a business, he couldn't be over 26,000 pound RATING with what his truck GVWR is and what his trailer GVWR is, UNLESS he had a CDL. Not going to get into whether that's true or not, because I don't know, and I don't ever plan on getting a CDL.

BUT, the comments that ensued from that where of the nature that it does NOT matter whether you are a business or not, if you're over 26,000 TOTAL GVWR of the trailer and truck, you need a CDL, or something more than a class C license.

So, as I thought about that, that doesn't make sense to me. For example, if that were the law, you could NOT pull our 5er with a 2500, because the GVWR on the truck is 10K, and the GVWR on our 5er is 16.5K, so you're at 26,500. Not what you weigh, but what you could weigh. Now, the issue with that is that there is NO way that you're anywhere's close to legal on payload in the truck with a 2500. That would also mean that if you had a 3500 DRW which has a GVWR of 14K, you could ONLY pull a 12K 5er without going over the 26K. Those two numbers and the capabilities of the trucks appear to be going in the wrong directions!

As I looked at my license, I wasn't for sure. My license says, "Class C: Any single vehicle with a GVWR less than 26,001 lbs." So, does that mean that my truck is the single vehicle, or the truck and trailer together is the single vehicle. Because, if it's together, we are over 26,001 GVWR...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong! The 10k gvwr on your truck is what the truck is rated for total weight of the truck.. if your truck weighs 8000 lbs, a total of 2000 lbs more can be added inside the truck!.THE GROSS COMBINED VEHICLE WEIGHT RATING IS WHAT THE TRUCK AND TRAILER TOGETHER CAN GO TO.. SO, YOU CAN FILL YOUR TRUCK WITH 2000 more and add a trailer not to exceed the gcvwr.. My truck can weigh 14000 lbs with a tow rating of 32000 lbs making a gcvwr of 46000 lbs!..

[dfb]

Originally Posted by Gary and Joy

I would like you all to look at your license. My Georgia and also my current Nevada license said I can tow a trailer <10,000 lbs. In Nevada I had to test and road test to get a class "J" endorsement. I think you're more likely to get a ticket for improper license that improper weight. Your state may be different.

Nevada stopped the endorsements... they said they dont do it any longer..

[Jester]

Originally Posted by L0veless

ok lets not get into "I tow with this no problem"
I know laws are different from state to state.
are there any laws on the books that make it illegal to tow exceeding gvw?
example Code? currently in a P*ssing contest and would like to know it is illegal per state code...…
Or am I misinformed. we all know this is hardly ever enforced but legal is legal. or if I'm in an accident being over weight your cited for reckless driving or something.

thank you

The quick answer is a big YES in New York State, a lot of them. Mostly weight limits and registered weight violations.

[Woodchuck]

I just purchased a 2020 Ram 3500 in CA. When filling out the DMV paperwork, the dealer asked me what am I towing and the weight of that 5th wheel. The GCVWR was filled in as 14k for the truck and 14k for the 5vr. Combined 28k. My weight fees will be huge and now reading this discussion, I am wondering if I will be needing a licensing change to a CDL. Why am I paying weight fees for full time usage when DMV does not ask or know what percentage of time I am hooked to 5vr? I questioned the dealer on this and it was stated that this is what CA does now.

[skypilot]

CadMan KS asked a question earlier about the Class A exam in Kansas. I took it just over a year ago as between my F450 and coach I've a GCWR over 26000 pounds. The exams (written and Driving) were taken at the Manhattan (Riley County) DMV office out on 24 highway. The written exam was basically the same as for the 'normal class C' plus some questions on the trailer (checking lights, tires, etc.).



The examiner informed me upon arriving at the truck and trailer that other than instructions of what steps to do/directions to go, no other conversation between the examiner and I should occur.


The driving test started with me doing a walk around of the truck and trailer, explaining everything that I was checking (oil, radiator, brake fluid, tires, tire pressure (did not actually have to check it-just explain that I did), lights, hitch, etc) Then we went on the driving part, starting the course was getting out of the parking lot (start of test) plus driving highway and neighborhood. The examiner also had me back up about 50 feet in a straight line, then while still backing up, do a 90 degree turn into a parking space (with allowed pulling forward and backing up several times) and parallel parking. Total driving test took about 40 minutes.



When we got back I was asked how my truck and trailer managed to get to the exam station. I informed the examiner that I had driven it after having a discussion with another examiner the day prior when I was researching the requirement for a Class A Non-Commercial license. By then we had gotten inside the office once more and I was told that my query of the day prior had created quite a bit of research because no one had ever done one of these before - not to mention that I had just taken more than 80 percent of the CDL driving test. In any case, quite a morning and I finally walked out / drove away with a Class A Non-Commercial license.


By the way, I checked with several RV dealers in the weeks before and since my taking the test and only one out of six that I've asked has told me that I needed anything other than my normal drivers license (class C).

[Dam Worker]

I know very little about all of the rules but I do know a couple of rules. In Washington State any time you have a CDL you are held to higher standards including percentages in a breathalyzer test and random drug/alcohol testing. At least that is the standard of what my employees were held to. At work I could not drive the dump truck because it had a GVW of 26,500. If it was on a farm then no problem so long as you are within a 100 mile radius (if I remember correctly maybe 75). Anything with air brakes is CDL or over a certain amount of passengers. This is all falling under commercial and when you go to Private Carrier it seems to get really convoluted. Years ago I started to get a CDL class A, I passed the Tanker and Air Brakes part and decided I didn’t need it as we had plenty of other employees with them. In Washington they have Class A, B and C.
I am probably in the grey area with a 16,000 lbs Fifth-wheel and 14,000 GVR truck with my F350 DRW. Maybe if I get really bored tonight I might go through some more of Washington’s laws, or maybe I will just hope it is information that I will probably never need. It is a good topic with a lot of information about legal weights and and how different each state is. Years ago if I remember correctly when towing in Canada you could not have a wide body trailer or motor home.
Happy and safe roads to you.

Tom Marty

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by dfb

Nevada stopped the endorsements... they said they dont do it any longer..

Still listed here:

https://dmvnv.com/nvdl.htm#rv

[Ed C]

Took my F250 and 40' Monty to the scales, and found that I exceeded all ratings, including TV wheels, Payload, GVRW, etc. Found that it was not safe, let along legal, so I upgraded to a F350 DW, and weighed again. Found that I was now well within all the capacity ratings.

My F250 towed the 40' Monty just fine, with air bags, but it was not safe or legal.

So, get the right TV for the right rig. I was not happy about having to upgrade the TV. Had to dip into my retirement funds!

[Last2Die]

Originally Posted by Woodchuck

I just purchased a 2020 Ram 3500 in CA. When filling out the DMV paperwork, the dealer asked me what am I towing and the weight of that 5th wheel. The GCVWR was filled in as 14k for the truck and 14k for the 5vr. Combined 28k. My weight fees will be huge and now reading this discussion, I am wondering if I will be needing a licensing change to a CDL. Why am I paying weight fees for full time usage when DMV does not ask or know what percentage of time I am hooked to 5vr? I questioned the dealer on this and it was stated that this is what CA does now.

Hmm just purchased a 2020 gmc Denali 3500, 4 days ago and none of that was ever asked. I would look into it.

Tony

[Santa]

If one has a truck with a 10,000 lb gvwr and the truck weighs 8028 that leaves a payload of 1972 lbs. Add a hitch at 80 lbs that makes remaining payload 1892 lbs. Hook up a 5er with king pin weight of 2880 lbs and the truck is now over by 988 lbs.

That is how Ohio Highway Patrol looks at it.

So who says the truck can be loaded to it’s max of 10,000 lbs and not be overloaded when you add the trailer hitch weight to the maxed out truck?

Just curious.

Mike

[Eagleback]

If you have seen the truck commercials and the 1 ton wars, the truck manufactures always use a goose neck to show the towing capabilities. They can move the loads forward or back to adjust for payload.

[steiny93]

Originally Posted by Montana Man

To the OP, I can't speak for sure and for certain about your original question. But, I can't imagine how registering a vehicle can change what the manufacturer recommends for a maximum payload. It doesn't sound reasonable for the manufacturer to be concerned about how a truck is registered, if at all. I can see registering a truck to lower than max load weights for various reasons.

Montana Man hit the root of the this topic, which continually is blended into the confusion.

Referring to this part "I can't imagine how registering a vehicle can change what the manufacturer recommends for a maximum payload."


At the end of the day, their isn't a 'law' on the books which directly ties a weight and the manufacturer's spec together (negligence indirectly does). But their are a pile of laws which tie registered weight and actual weights together.

At the end of the day,
If the operator isn't grossly negligent (civil matter) the long arm of the law is only going to care about registered weight vs actual weight.

The confusing part is the general public has somehow gotten it into their heads that the manufacturer's sticker in the door jam is a legally binding 'thing'; but it isn't. The legally binding 'thing' is the registration in the glove box.

[Montana Man]

[QUOTE=steiny93;1181605]Montana Man hit the root of the this topic, which continually is blended into the confusion.

Referring to this part "I can't imagine how registering a vehicle can change what the manufacturer recommends for a maximum payload."


At the end of the day, their isn't a 'law' on the books which directly ties a weight and the manufacturer's spec together (negligence indirectly does). But their are a pile of laws which tie registered weight and actual weights together.

At the end of the day,
If the operator isn't grossly negligent (civil matter) the long arm of the law is only going to care about registered weight vs actual weight.

The confusing part is the general public has somehow gotten it into their heads that the manufacturer's sticker in the door jam is a legally binding 'thing'; but it isn't. The legally binding 'thing' is the registration in the glove box.
Quote

There may be a couple things in play here. Apparently, some states allow you to register a truck to various load capacities of your choosing. In other states you simply register your truck, just don't load beyond the specs in the door jam.

My point is the manufacturers specs in the door jam cannot be exceeded regardless of how it is registered. Actual weights do matter, that's why they have scales. Perhaps in some states you could be hit with exceeding GVWR and registration issues.

[steiny93]

[QUOTE=Montana Man;1181612]

Originally Posted by steiny93

My point is the manufacturers specs in the door jam cannot be exceeded regardless of how it is registered. Actual weights do matter, that's why they have scales. Perhaps in some states you could be hit with exceeding GVWR and registration issues.

my point is that
"manufacturers specs in the door jam cannot be exceeded"

isn't enforced by law

rather
what you've licensed the vehicle is for what the law is enforcing

now, one could argue that negligent operation could be the act of being grossly over weight of manufacturer spec.

I'm not proposing or recommending that folks exceed recommendation, just calling out the differentiation between manufacturer spec and licensing as to which is legally required and which isn't.

[CalandLinda]

IMO the legality of exceeding a vehicle’s GVWR is most often confused with safety. For instance; a law enforcement officer observes a pick-up with the bed sagging because of the load its carrying and pulls the vehicle over for a check. The officer’s real probable cause for the stop was safety. When the vehicle was found to be in excess of its GVWR it was not allowed to proceed until it lost some weight. Of course that’s hypothetical but it happens.

The federal certification on vehicles lists those vehicles GVWR. The vehicle manufacturer has said to not exceed the GVWR. That fact is supported by all DOT enforcement officers. So if you’re inspected and found over GVWR it’s normally going to ruin your day.

Here is a little reminder I found in a NHTSA Q&A PDF.

“The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use.”

[Jester]

[QUOTE=steiny93;1181635]

Originally Posted by Montana Man

my point is that
"manufacturers specs in the door jam cannot be exceeded"

isn't enforced by law

rather
what you've licensed the vehicle is for what the law is enforcing

now, one could argue that negligent operation could be the act of being grossly over weight of manufacturer spec.

I'm not proposing or recommending that folks exceed recommendation, just calling out the differentiation between manufacturer spec and licensing as to which is legally required and which isn't.

It is a legal issue rather than a safety issue. Fines are one thing but when you risk yourself and other people’s safety it’s a whole new ballgame.

[Santa]

Jester, I beg to differ. I've had several try to tell me the only difference between 2500 and 3500 GM pickups is "a magical leaf in the rear springs." The rear axles are different, 3500 has 1" bigger ring gear and gussets at the tube to pumpkin connection.

Wonder why the difference? I'm betting to handle more weight safely.
Can you overload a truck and get away with it? Sure, but when it fails it is dramatic.

I bought my Monty in January and towed it home from Virginia to Ohio across the West Virginia turnpike through the mountains. My 2500 HD handled the 5er just fine, not one hiccup.

When I started looking at things I discovered the weights in my earlier post on this thread. I was over on the truck's GVWR and RAWR. I was within CGVWR and trailer GVWR the truck could tow. All those numbers were with an empty truck and trailer. Can you do it? YES Can it possibly fail, absolutely. But when it does fail you cannot hide, you will most likely be on the move and not parked somewhere. Will you lose control, yep. SAFETY is compromised when you lose control.

I ran a "what if" by a friend who is an Ohio State Trooper. He advised me that as soon as an officer sees a truck with a huge trailer hooked up in an accident they decide if things look Kosher. If they think you may be overloaded you Will get scaled. Even if not blatantly at fault you loading can be deemed as contributing to the accident. He said he would not want to deal with the attorneys brought in.

So a safety situation becomes a legal nightmare for the operator. If you don't overload you can avoid the potential nightmare.

Mike

[cgeis48]

BOTTOM LINE - try to find an RVer who had been cited for overload.

[DadsHemi]

Last Friday I was involved in a accident, hit and run in my 3500, called the CHP and the first words out of the 911 persons mouth was ( are you pulling a trailer ), I had told the
911 person the year make and model. So yeah go ahead pull and overloaded truck, get in an accident and see what happens.

Tell that guy pulling a 14k skid steer with a 2500 GMC with a 10k rated trailer that wrecked big time, yeah I beat he got hosed by the cops.