Thor purchases Tiffin = Sad

[mhs4771]

Just look at the quality of all the brands that Thor has bought out, seems like all have gone down and the product greatly cheapened up to improve the profit margin for the share holders.

[Jamesb]

Lessons in life I guess. And in the end, Bob, Judy, and family deserves the best for the future. I would have thought the company was worth more. They definitely are living the American dream. In the fifth wheel world, I’d say Luxe is next to be bought out Time will tell the stories.
If those few seasoned Montana owners on this Forum would get together and build us a fifth wheel, they could live the America dream . And they know who they are. I believe there is nothing they don’t know, or had it apart. But, then again, it probably wouldn’t be affordable. But the quality would be unreal.
Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas

[mtlakejim]

Originally Posted by kowbra

Agree to disagree on the "never fails... ands ends up destroying the very culture..."
M&A is tricky for sure, there are many challenges. And, often deals do not work out as planned. But, done right it can work, and work well.

Let's not pretend we have a crystal ball here.

Brad

You don't need a crystal ball, just common sense and a view into history. Let me put it this way, name ONE company that was bought out and their product got better.

I have lived first hand several mergers and they ALWAYS end up badly!

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mhs4771

Just look at the quality of all the brands that Thor has bought out, seems like all have gone down and the product greatly cheapened up to improve the profit margin for the share holders.

I'd be curious to have some data to support the idea that "all have gone downhill". Do you have any you can share?

Here are 2 pieces of data:

First, Thor started in 1980 when they took over Airstream. That brand continues to sell at prices several times higher than competitors, and they continue to get very high ratings on quality and much higher than average repeat customer rates.

Second, as far as I can tell, Thor purchased Montana in 2001, so pretty much the entirety of Montana has been under Thor ownership. Montana has maintained a reputation of being a luxury, higher quality brand. We are all here on this forum because we believe that, even if it's not perfect.

So, I don't think all things Thor are poor quality. In fact, the above brands seem to show the opposite.

Maybe other Thor brands have gone downhill after being purchased? That would be relevant to know. It might be quality goes down, might be it doesn't, but without data to show this, IMHO what's left is just speculation.


Brad

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by mtlakejim

You don't need a crystal ball, just common sense and a view into history. Let me put it this way, name ONE company that was bought out and their product got better.

I have lived first hand several mergers and they ALWAYS end up badly!

See my post #24. I disagree, and Montana is proof that not all do end badly.

And, BTW, a data set of "several" is not proof of "ALWAYS" ;-)

Brad

[WeBeFulltime]

Originally Posted by kowbra

See my post #24. I disagree, and Montana is proof that not all do end badly.

And, BTW, a data set of "several" is not proof of "ALWAYS" ;-)

Brad

I have purchased and full-timed in 3 different Montanas all purchased new. The quality has gone down hill!

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by WeBeFulltime

I have purchased and full-timed in 3 different Montanas all purchased new. The quality has gone down hill!

Sorry to hear that!

We just bought our first Montana, so I can't comment on this. But I am curious.
What years did you have?
And in what ways has the quality gone downhill?

Thanks in advance for anything else you can share!
Brad

[richfaa]

We have had 2 Montana's since 2006.There have been many upgrades and improvements but IMO the quality of build has remained the same. We have been through the factory tour at every fall rally since 2006 it looks the same now as it did then. That may not be a complement but IMO a fact.

[WeBeFulltime]

Originally Posted by kowbra

Sorry to hear that!

We just bought our first Montana, so I can't comment on this. But I am curious.
What years did you have?
And in what ways has the quality gone downhill?

Thanks in advance for anything else you can share!
Brad

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that they are now junk but the 2018.5 wasn't the same quality as the 2008 and the 2012 especially the interior cabinets and other woodwork. The 2012 3585SA with the Hickory interior was best of the 3 by far.

[AZ Traveler]

Better than Tiffin going out of business because the family was done with it. Think of the jobs lost.

[66 Galaxie]

Originally Posted by kowbra

See my post #24. I disagree, and Montana is proof that not all do end badly.

And, BTW, a data set of "several" is not proof of "ALWAYS" ;-)

Brad

Agree. Airstream hasn't lost a step. People can't seem to be able to tell Thor brand from Thor owned brands.

[dfb]

Originally Posted by mhs4771

Just look at the quality of all the brands that Thor has bought out, seems like all have gone down and the product greatly cheapened up to improve the profit margin for the share holders.

Then let the "share holders' buy the product... This is our Last Thor Product.. We are still looking for a used Non Thor 5th Wheel...

[richfaa]

Originally Posted by dfb

Then let the "share holders' buy the product... This is our Last Thor Product.. We are still looking for a used Non Thor 5th Wheel...

That will certainly narrow down the search. Have you come up with anything.

[BB_TX]

On another RV forum it is not uncommon to see someone state that they will never own a Thor product. They will stick with their Airstream, or DRV Mobile Suites, or Jayco, or KZ, or Heartland, or ...... and are surprised when someone points out that Thor owns those companies.

[kowbra]

Originally Posted by BB_TX

On another RV forum it is not uncommon to see someone state that they will never own a Thor product. They will stick with their Airstream, or DRV Mobile Suites, or Jayco, or KZ, or Heartland, or ...... and are surprised when someone points out that Thor owns those companies.

Great point, and it kind of points out what's negative about the whole theme of this thread, "Thor purchases Tiffin = Sad"...

People are quick to pile on the negative without taking the time to research for themselves. I like how you've pointed out how many successful brands are actually owned by Thor.
Time will reveal what will happen to Tiffin under Thor ownership, but Thor has a very good record with many of the brands they've purchased... including Montana.

Brad

[DutchmenSport]

I took the time to put this together a couple months ago. Hope it copies as I created it. The Thor Family:

Thor Industries family

--Airstream
Classic
Globtrotter
International
Flying Cloud
Caravel
Bambi
Basecamp


--CrossRoads
Cameo
Cruiser
Cruiser Aire
Hampton
Redwood
Sunset Trail
Volante
Zinger
Zinger Lite


--CruiserRV
Embrace Ultra-Lite
Fun Finder
MPG Ultra-Lite
Radiance Ultra-Lite
Shadow Cruiser Ultra Lite
Stryker


--DRV
Mobile Suites


--Dutchmen
Aerolite
Aspen Trail
Astoria
Atlas
Coleman
Endurance
Kodiak
Rubicon
Triton
Voltage


--Entegra Coach
Accolade
Aspire
Anthem
Cornerstone
Emblem
Esteem
Odyssey
Vision
Qwest
Reatta
Reatta XL


--Erwin Hymer Group
Buccaneer
Burstner
Carado
CrossCamp
Compass
Dethleffs
Eriba
Elddis
ETRVSCO
FreeOntour
Hymer
LMC
Laika
Niesmann Bischoff
Sunlight
Xplore


--Heartland Recreation Vehicles
Light
Mesa Ridge
Mesa Ridge Lite
Mesa Ridge Limited
Open Range
Open Range Ultra Lite
Silver Star
Silver Star Lite
Silver Star Limited


--Highland Ridge RV
Light
Mesa Ridge
Mesa Ridge Lite
Mesa Ridge Limited
Open Range
Open Range Ultra Lite
Silver Star
Silver Star Lite
Silver Star Limited


--Jayco
Alante
Eagle
Eagle HT
Embark
GreyHawk
GreyHawk Prestige
Humming Bird
Jay Feather
Jay Flight SLX
Jay flight by Jayco
Jay Flight Bungalow
Melbourne
Melbourne Prestige
North Point
Octaine SL
Pinnacle
Precept
Precept Pristige
RedHawk
RedHawk SE
Seismic
Seneca
Talon
White Hawk


--Keystone RV Company
Alpine
Avalanche
Bullet Ultra Lite
Carbon
Cougar half Ton
Fuzion
Hideout
Laredo
Montana
Montana High Country
Outback
Outback Ultra Lite
Passport GT Series
Passport SL Series
Premier
Springdale
Sprinter
Residence
Retreat


--KZ Recreational Vehicles
Connect SE
Connect
Durango Half-Ton
Durango
Durango Gold
Escape
Sportsmen SE Classic
Sportsmen Classic
Sportsmen
Sportster
Venom V Series
Venom


--Redwood – Fall under Cross Roads Recreational Vehicles


--StarCraft
Autumn Ridge
Super Lite
Telluride


--Thor Motor Coach
A.C.E.
Aria
Axis
Challenger
Hurricane
Miramax
Palazzo
Tuscany
Venetian
Vegas
Windsport


--Tiffin
Breeze
Aleero Red 340
Alleero
Open Road Allero
Allegro Bus
Phaeton
Zephyr


--Vanleigh a Division of Tiffin
Pinecrest
Vilano
Beacon


--Venture
Sonic
Sonic Lite
Sporttrek
Sporttrek Touring Edition
Stratus



-----------

Yes, all of these fall under the Thor Industries umbrella:

ThorIndustries.com

[sourdough]

^^^^Thanks. So many think there is some special "unit" sitting out there made by "another company" that they can buy, made without cost consideration that can then be purchased for the same price as that "inferior" unit they purchased from Thor. Hmmm... ain't there.

[rames14]

We are currently awaiting our 4th Montana. We bought our first Montana in 2004. It was an early 2005 3400RL. We then got grandkids and wanted a separate bathroom. Enter our 2010 Big Sky 365. When we moved to the mountains after retirement, our driveway was too steep for the 365, enter our current 2015 3160. We just got our driveway redone at the same time that Montana came out with the new 3230CK. Along with Super Solar, we hope to expand our boondocking since we live in one of the best areas in the country for that. From Jim Renk, to Arum, to Jason and now to the new team at Montana, they have always listened to their customer. We have been doing the Montana factory tour since 2004. We have made every Goshen rally since they started. Anyone who has attended a rally in Goshen knows that the Montana management team is always interested in improving the product. They have the longest tenured hourly staff of any RV manufacturer in the Elkhart area. But, like most companies, they also have a group of employees that make the rounds from manufacturer to manufacturer. We have been very happy with our units. Have we had defects, yes. The dirty secret of the RV world is that people think that they can take their unit to any dealer for service like their Ford, GMC or Ram. That is not how the RV world works. Yes, for emergency work, but not to fix non-critical items. Where we purchased our 2nd Montana, the owner told us on average, across all makes and models and types, he spent $1200 in unreimbursed costs satisfying the customer. If you look at what goes into an RV, I would estimate 80% of the content is the same regardless of which RV you buy. Frames - Lippert. A/C - Dometic and Coleman. Furnace and Waterheater - Suburban, etc. Cabinets - companies like Middlebury Hardwoods. Our personal experience has been that Montana and other divisions are allowed to run their own businesses.

I am fascinated by people that are as knowledgeable as some on here that know that companies that acquire other companies are always failures. I guess I worked for a couple of companies that were different - Caterpillar and Borg Warner. Both acquired many companies - all with the aim to improve their technology or product offering to the customer. This is just my personal opinion and experience. We don’t have near the experience many on here have.

[dfb]

Originally Posted by richfaa

That will certainly narrow down the search. Have you come up with anything.

We are looking at used.. Not new... Id much rather have a prior 2010 Kz Escalade than a new anything today... Or a Teton Experience, or a Prior to Thor Mobile Suites... It seems it's just that bad.. When a Company puts Profit over Quality and materials, then for me it's time to look elsewhere. Even if it means an older unit...We have had so many problems. We just got back from a trip where the black tank came apart. I thought i fixed it.. Seems to be leaking again..The latest is the slide out swipe seals on the exterior... We have owned 2 aljos.. a prowler, a Kz and non have given us the problems this one has given.. Im sure happy for those who have had not problems... wish i was there with ya...
.

[dfb]

Originally Posted by sourdough

^^^^Thanks. So many think there is some special "unit" sitting out there made by "another company" that they can buy for their money, made without cost consideration that they can then buy for the same price as the that "inferior" unit they purchased from Thor. Hmmm... ain't there.

This is why we are looking for a prior 2010 high end unit...If Thor built cars, they would be the YUGO... and out of business...Really not trying to be "Danny Downer"...