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Old 05-13-2022, 10:46 AM   #1
bwright
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12 volt issue

I have been trying to find the source of my problem with the 12 volt power in my 2021 3761FL for a couple of months now. When the unit is connected to shore power, everything works. When I disconnect shore power, nothing works. I have troubleshooted the following items below:

1) Inverter is good when plugged in, starter wire is getting 12 volts
2) Converter is working properly and even talked with a tech at Progressive Dynamics to confirm I was checking all correctly
3) Battery is good and properly charged
3) The power key in the wet bay is in the right position and cannot be removed
4) Battery shut off in the front compartment is "ON"

When I disconnect shore power, I have no 12volt anywhere in the coach and the inverter is not running and powering the refrigerator.

What am I missing?
 
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Old 05-13-2022, 12:14 PM   #2
jimcol
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It sure sounds like a battery disconnect, either in the wet bay or front compartment is not operating properly. The labeling on these things always seems confusing. Have you tried it with the battery shut off set to off? If so I'd start with your VOM and read both sides of these two disconnect switches.
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Old 05-13-2022, 12:54 PM   #3
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First a 12vdc problem i would check your red self resetting circuit breakers on the wall behind your batteries.

No DC power from battery. Good when on Shore power.
For a 5th wheel RV...
Take a multimeter. On shore power, check each post of your red 50A self resetting circuit breakers near your batteries. They should all read the same (about 12.4vdc).
Now remove shore power. Check them again.
Which ever one is NOT showing 12vdc on the post, it is bad. Replace it.
Note: charging is also possible via the 7 way cable from your tow vehicle. It could be supplying power on the same (good) side of the breaker.
Buy Bussmann 50A self resetting circuit breakers. Very reliable. You can get them at your local auto parts store.
Perfect flow chart:
https://www.montanaowners.com/forums...ad.php?t=86323
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Old 05-13-2022, 01:21 PM   #4
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Your rig is new enough that if you still have a 50 amp resetting breaker and it’s bad, you might as well upgrade it to an 80 amp breaker, which is what Lippert specs out for the hydraulics anyway.
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Old 05-13-2022, 01:29 PM   #5
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Agree with Bob, it is most likely the resetting CB. Easy to test with a voltmeter to check for voltage on both sides.
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Old 05-13-2022, 01:34 PM   #6
Carl n Susan
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Yup, another vote for a dead 50 amp self-resetting circuit breaker. They are on the back wall of the battery compartment with red plastic caps. Remove the caps to find the posts. Check each side with a VOM as Daryles described.
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Old 05-13-2022, 02:55 PM   #7
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Any chance this is the breakers you are talking about?
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Old 05-13-2022, 03:05 PM   #8
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Another vote for the red 50 amp auto reset breaker. Our 2021 rig came with 80A manual reset breaker on the hydraulics, but the 12v to the battery disconnect switch ran thru the infamous 50A auto reset (now replaced by manual reset). Of that red breaker trips (no indicator other than testing with muotimeter) there is no 12v to the coach. This includes the 12v ignition wire to the inverter! Yes, you'll have 12v there on shorepower (regardless of the auto reset) because the converter is feeding 12v to everything on the coach side of the auto reset breaker.

I'll wager dollar to donut that if you test the ignition wire to the inverter while you are disconnected from shore and w/o 12v in the coach - you won't have 12v there (but you will have 12v at the opposite end of the inverter where the the large gauge wire feeds directly from the inverter battery switch. I've been there and done that, my cause was the inverter was intentionally switch to lithium charge profile and my lithium was taking more than 50A of charge causing the breaker to trip (which also meant batteries weren't getting fully charged. I now have an 80A manual breaker there as well (unless you have lithium 50 will do).
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Old 05-13-2022, 03:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwright View Post
Any chance this is the breakers you are talking about?
Those are it. But it appears someone has re-wired from the normal stock system. Normally, the 12V from the battery goes to a 50 amp breaker on the Bat side. A jumper goes from the same post (Bat) to another 50 amp CB again to the Bat side. On the second 50 amp CB, the wire to the pump and the fuse panel come off the Load side. This is the 50 amp CB that fails as it is the one carrying the volt/amperage for the pump and the fuse panel. But that is in a normal wiring setup.

Here it appears the 12V battery wire goes to the right hand 50 amp CB on the Bat side. But the wire to the fuse panel *AND* the wire to the pump are coming off the Load side. This despite the fact someone wired an 80 amp CB in the wire from the 50 amp CB to the pump motor. In effect, you have a 50 amp CB protecting the circuit with an 80 amp one behind it which is useless (the 50 will trip long before the 80).

In any case, the right hand 50 amp CB has failed and needs to be replaced. Take the time to wire it correctly when you replace it so the 80 amp breaker is actually in control.

Here is a link to one of many Threads on the 50 amp breaker. This one, as do others, have pictures of the "normal" wiring as it comes from the factory. https://www.montanaowners.com/forums...ad.php?t=72657

The Search function will uncover many more Threads on thjhis topic.
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Old 05-13-2022, 04:19 PM   #10
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Carl,

Mine was OEM wired like his. The right hand 50A has batt feed (from bottom - left terminal), 2 jumpers (out top - left terminal) large jumper to 80A hydraulics breaker, smaller jumper to left auto reset. The right hand terminal is feed feed to disconnect switch.
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Old 05-13-2022, 05:27 PM   #11
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What I see looking at the right hand 50 amp CB sure looks incorrect to me. The left side of the CB obviously ls has two wires attached (both with black plastic crimps). One goes up to the 80 amp CB and then off to the pump. The other goes down under the floor to the fuse panel.

The right side of the CB has a yellow plastic crimp line from what has to be the battery (not enough detail in photo to prove it). The only way for the two lines on the left side (Load) to get 12V is from the line on the right (Bat) through what has to be a dead CB.

Hopefully the below picture shows what I think I see.

Click image for larger version

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Old 05-13-2022, 05:42 PM   #12
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I don't having any markup tools on my tablet, but when I zoom in it looks like I see the large red wire in the right forefront, crossing over the wire that comes from the right terminal. What I believe is the crossover point is a bit below your arrow on the left side. The OP should check to see which it is. Clearly, if all the load is after that reset breaker he's going to have hydraulics issues too.
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Old 05-13-2022, 05:46 PM   #13
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I agree with Carl's assessment.
I bet that middle CB is bad.
When you replace it, put that short 4 gauge jumper on the RIGHT post of that middle CB.
This will put the 80A hydraulic system CB in line with the battery.
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Old 05-13-2022, 06:33 PM   #14
bwright
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This unit is a year old and I’ve never touched those wires, straight from the factory like that.
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Old 05-13-2022, 06:39 PM   #15
bwright
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Thanks for everyone’s help, I should get this knocked out tomorrow and be able to cancel my appointment on Tuesday to a local repair service and save a boat load f money%. Thanks again to everyone for contributing.
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Old 05-13-2022, 06:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl n Susan View Post
What I see looking at the right hand 50 amp CB sure looks incorrect to me. The left side of the CB obviously ls has two wires attached (both with black plastic crimps). One goes up to the 80 amp CB and then off to the pump. The other goes down under the floor to the fuse panel.

The right side of the CB has a yellow plastic crimp line from what has to be the battery (not enough detail in photo to prove it). The only way for the two lines on the left side (Load) to get 12V is from the line on the right (Bat) through what has to be a dead CB.

Hopefully the below picture shows what I think I see.

Attachment 11956
Dam Carl the next time I have a problem I'm dragging my trailer to you for repair! We're only about 25 minuets away!
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Old 05-13-2022, 07:39 PM   #17
Carl n Susan
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Dam Carl the next time I have a problem I'm dragging my trailer to you for repair! We're only about 25 minuets away!
No problem! My shop rate is a lot less than FLRV.
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Old 05-15-2022, 02:45 PM   #18
bwright
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Thanks to all for your help, I finally was able to find the correct circuit breaker at O’Reillys, replaced it and all is working correctly. Amazing what problems can exist from a $7 part. BTW, I checked the wiring and it was wired correctly, pictures were deceiving.

Thank you for everyone’s help!
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Old 05-15-2022, 02:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwright View Post
Thanks to all for your help, I finally was able to find the correct circuit breaker at O’Reillys, replaced it and all is working correctly. Amazing what problems can exist from a $7 part. BTW, I checked the wiring and it was wired correctly, pictures were deceiving.

Thank you for everyone’s help!
Good job.

Buy a spare for future use
Bussmann (CBP-50BA) 50 Amp Circuit Breaker https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004AHAD9C/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_HNZKQQJHAC4MPG3MQMTK?_encoding= UTF8&psc=1
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Old 05-18-2022, 09:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by bwright View Post
I have been trying to find the source of my problem with the 12 volt power in my 2021 3761FL for a couple of months now. When the unit is connected to shore power, everything works. When I disconnect shore power, nothing works. I have troubleshooted the following items below:

1) Inverter is good when plugged in, starter wire is getting 12 volts
2) Converter is working properly and even talked with a tech at Progressive Dynamics to confirm I was checking all correctly
3) Battery is good and properly charged
3) The power key in the wet bay is in the right position and cannot be removed
4) Battery shut off in the front compartment is "ON"

When I disconnect shore power, I have no 12volt anywhere in the coach and the inverter is not running and powering the refrigerator.

What am I missing?
When you disconnect from shore power the converter should be turned off otherwise you are chasing your tail. If the batteries are dealer installed or equivalent they are most likely dead. In order of goodness get two 6V GC batteries from Trojan or equivalent. 2 12V AGM DEEP cycle battery, one LiFePO4. With goodness comes initial cost but life also increases. A lot will depend on how long you boondock each year.
You can tell if your batteries are wrong by looking at them., If the initils CCA or MCCA or the phrase cranking amps is there than it's the wrong kind of battery. Ne informed, many sellers will sell you the wrong thing. I got mine at a golf cart store and they were the cheapest.
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