Why quality is down

[Phil P]

X2 for sambam

Until Montana has some sort of “accountability” built into the company starting from the top down they will always have problems. They don’t even audit their dealers service departments the only thing they know is the dealer has a door with the label “service department” on it. All Montana relies on is the dealers sales record.

Very few other companies that mass produce complex products like automobiles, trucks, large trailers, farm tractors etc allow a dealer to exist without having a service department with properly trained service technicians.

Besides my trailer not have had even the end of production line inspection at the factory the dealer didn’t even have an experienced service manager and the service technicians were all agriculture mechanics from the local agriculture community not even from equipment dealers. They didn’t even have a service technician that could caulk the shower enclosure I had to show him how. I had to teach their electrician how to use my multi meter (the service department didn’t have a meter) and Keystone flat out told me they don’t track those thing this from Mr. Holms.

Until Keystone (Thor Industries) address this problem the quality will always be a hit or miss event.

Phil P

[jameswbarton]

So if you are a manufacturer using the non skilled labor in your area and these employees are making mistakes you can either sell a poor quality product or put implement a quality assurance program designed to raise quality and decrease manufacturing cost. By the poor response of Keystone to customer issues it appears they do not care about product quality.

[richfaa]

18/22 units out the door with little or no quality control is the problem. The RV industry has been this way as long as we have owned Rv's which is 25 years plus.

Un skilled labor with good quality control can build a good unit and these workers are not exactly unskilled.

If you are on the factory tour this fall rally ask your guide when you are at one of the assembly stations how do you know all the tasks performed at this station are complete with no quality issues... Remember the answer.

[mlh]

If you are making a product and have a high turn over rate for employes how do you implement a QC program? By the time you get a person trained they leave and you can't have someone looking over everybody sholder. You can't afford that. And how much more would be willing to pay for a unit that been built with better QC, 10 20%. If you pay employs more that raises cost that you haft pass on. Then you might, probably would wind up with just better paid druggies. What do you do???? I don't know.

[jameswbarton]

How do you not implement a quality program if your manufacturing cost is increasing, your rework % is high, and your Quality failures are beginning to become a customer issue. Without a Quality program, you have to inspect quality into the product by a final inspection at the end of the line, The dealer's inspection, and finally the PDI done by the customers. This is a high cost and will eventually results in lowering sales. Quality is not a police force in manufacturing it is a manufacturing culture that reduces manufacturing cost and increases product reliability and dependability. It is what America taught to the world many years ago.

[waynemoore]

James, you are correct on almost every point except Japan taught Detroit about quality. If not for Honda and Toyota we would still have to trade in our big three cars every three years before they fell apart.

Every company I have ever worked for QC had to ok the build at every station before that unit was allowed to proceed. In my mind it is neer imposable to QC the RV at the end of the assembley line as there are far to many hidden systems.

[jameswbarton]

Dr. Edward Demming an American taught the Japanese their current form of Quality. Your view on Quality is antiquated. If Quality is properly integrated it does not depend on inspections at every station in the manufacturing line. Instead it integrates into every manufacturing job and process. It reduces waste and increases productivity and is measurable in dollars.

You are correct you cannot inspect in quality at the end of the process which causes a huge increase in manufacturing cost. You have to build your company, processes, and suppliers and distributors on your quality standards.

If Quality of a manufacturing process is not built into the job performance standards for each employee a company is missing an opportunity.
When it came to Total Quality Management Dr. Demming said "It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory."

An effective quality Program, increases productivity, eliminates rework and failure costs, makes the product more reliable andd saleable and implements customer feedback into the manufacturing process. It makes you a Honda or a Toyota in America.

[bigskyjimmy]

Ever watch the Film "Gung Ho" with Micheal Keaton ??? Kinda what the RV Industry needs right now is Having the Japanese come in and teach them KAIZEN "Continuous Improvement" like James said Originally from Dr Demming, at my Old job in the late 80's we were taught that process and a lot of the Employees thought it was B.S but ya know what IT WORKED and our Company , Employees AND The End User were better off because of it ALTHOUGH I thought the Exercises before every Shift was Stupidthose of us that have been through the training know what I mean

[DQDick]

All these comments should be brought to the fall Rally and presented to the top people at Keystone who will be speaking and taking questions.

[Chip]

Jameswbarton is correct. The Demming process will increase quality, increase production, and reduce cost. Employees are happier. The RV industry is perfect for this process. But it does take work and someone who cares. You can't do it sitting in the office.

[TLightning]

quote:Originally posted by Bigboomer

...imagine these same people building airliners, tanks, trains...

Based on my experience as a sailor and pilot these same people are not building boats and planes. A couple of years ago, I purchased a 33' sailboat that had all the bells and whistles my Montana has. The boat was seven years old and I paid twice what the Montana cost new. As for airplanes, I've flown many, both fixed and rotary wing, and the only very poorly made aircraft I saw was made in the old USSR. The guys/gals putting boats and aircraft together are getting paid more money and putting out better products. Follow the money!

[richfaa]

BTW quality is not down it is the same as it has always been. We have seen the Montana assembly line 11 times nothing has changed except the year of the unit being assembled.

[bw2]

Curious, what is the concensus of a quality RV? How many and of what type of a problem? What would be the price for such a unit the concensus would be willing to pay?

Automobiles have reduced the qualified work force and added robots to attain quality at an affordable price (affordable?).

Again, just curious.

[jameswbarton]

If a Total Company Quality Program is initiated properly the cost of Quality is actually free. Quality does not always mean everything is perfect. Quality is developed to fulfill your customers expectations, is measurable, and is saleable if it fulfills a customers need. It reduces manufacturing cost by eliminating waste, rework, customer complaints. Most companies set their quality standards and programs to maintain a high level of profitability with equal failure cost and failure prevention cost. It has to cot keystone 3x-5x more to fix the manufacturing problems than it would to have the manufacturing steps done correctly.

[mlh]

I don't know who Dr Demming is but I do know what quality is. In my shop we make hundreds of different parts for dozens of products and have the highest quality in the industry. We don't have a QC inspector no body ever inspects parts we don't even have blueprints, not one. What we do have is good people that care. That is exactly what Montna can't get.
Lynwood

[richfaa]

Very good Lynwood. I do know who Dr Demming is and I think you could teach him a thing or two.

[1retired06]

quote:Originally posted by mlh

I don't know who Dr Demming is but I do know what quality is. In my shop we make hundreds of different parts for dozens of products and have the highest quality in the industry. We don't have a QC inspector no body ever inspects parts we don't even have blueprints, not one. What we do have is good people that care. That is exactly what Montna can't get.
Lynwood

Well said. Your operation is clearly a great place to work. Pride shows in your post. Suspect Montana has good people as well but under pressure to move that production line or lose their jobs because of bosses driven by the bottom line.

[Phil P]

quote:Originally posted by mlh

We don't have a QC inspector no body ever inspects parts we don't even have blueprints, not one.
Lynwood

How do you manufacture a part without a print?

[Chip]

You don't need a QC inspector, the employee becomes the quality control person.
Which is what you apparently have.

[richfaa]

quote:Originally posted by bw2

Curious, what is the concensus of a quality RV? How many and of what type of a problem? What would be the price for such a unit the concensus would be willing to pay?

Automobiles have reduced the qualified work force and added robots to attain quality at an affordable price (affordable?).

Again, just curious.

I have said before IF My Montana was built the way I think it should be built it would be a tri axle, weigh @ 30K lbs and cost @ 200/250K $$$. Bigger frame, bigger suspension, better brakes etc as it is we spend @ 70 K then put another 7/8 K into it to bring it up to a condition were it will not fail nearly everytime we take a trip.

Quality checks on a Rv assembly line would slow down the line and increase employee cost you really do not need a well trained employee in QC in that environment just a well put together check list of tasks to be performed at each station or stations and a well trained QC person so see they are accomplished. That may slow down the line by a unit or two per day and the Manufactureres just can not do that.