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Old 02-18-2014, 12:59 PM   #21
DQDick
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Phil you're missing the point. Our breaker was popping when the weather got fairly cold. Keystone replaced my 40amp breaker with an 80amp breaker under warranty at their expense and told me that my rig was wired for that. I don't think they would have done that if they thought they were putting themselves at risk. The wiring in the newer rigs will take it. For a rig older than mine I would call Keystone and ask.
 
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:01 PM   #22
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I was having the same problem with the slids. Today I had the 50 nap fuse replaced with a new 50 amp fuse and the problem was fixed. While I was prepared to consider the 80 amp solution it was just a poor/weak 50 amp. Now we'll see how long it lasts!

The old fuse did seen to have a post the move back and forth once it was removed. Could not notice while it was installed
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:23 PM   #23
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quote:Originally posted by DQDick

Phil you're missing the point. Our breaker was popping when the weather got fairly cold. Keystone replaced my 40amp breaker with an 80amp breaker under warranty at their expense and told me that my rig was wired for that. I don't think they would have done that if they thought they were putting themselves at risk. The wiring in the newer rigs will take it. For a rig older than mine I would call Keystone and ask.
Relying on Keystone is scarier than anything else I have seen on this forum.

According to BB_TX he has determined that his trailer is wired with #4 wires. His determination of the capacity of #4 wires is correct. Our trailer is wired with #8 wire and Keystone had cut strands from the end of the #8 wire in order to get it in a but splice for #12 wire that came out of the 30 amp fuse holder.

Now with this information and having seen it I I would want to get a good look at the wiring they put the 80 amp breaker in to make sure it is at least AWG #4. This is the wire from the battery to the circuit breaker and the wiring from the breaker to the relay panel.

The wire in my trailer is not sufficient to carry 80 Amps. I donít ever plan on getting in cold weather. If it gets that cold in south Florida I will put the trailer on a barge and take it to Puerto Rico. LOL

I understand cold weather and that system is capable of drawing more than 50 amps when it gets gold enough. The purpose of my post is the likely hood that Keystone has wired the trailer with the minimum sizes wire like my trailer is and then just put a larger breaker in to make it work in the cold.

Under normal operation this may work but the breaker is not there for normal operation it is there to protect the wire if there is a short in the wiring after the breaker. This short could be to ground because of the wire getting crushed by something in the compartment or it could be shorted because of a catastrophic failure in the motor. If the wire is too small for the breaker installed it will glow red before the breaker or the wire finally opens the circuit.

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Old 02-18-2014, 04:23 PM   #24
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quote:Originally posted by jswharton

I was having the same problem with the slids. Today I had the 50 nap fuse replaced with a new 50 amp fuse and the problem was fixed. While I was prepared to consider the 80 amp solution it was just a poor/weak 50 amp. Now we'll see how long it lasts!

The old fuse did seen to have a post the move back and forth once it was removed. Could not notice while it was installed
Actually an auto reset circuit breaker, not a fuse if like most of us have. I replaced my 50 with a new 50 and it lasted the rest of the season. The next season it started it again. That is when I put in the twin 40's.
Auto reset circuit breaker sounds like a somewhat sophisticated device. Actually it is nothing more that a short bimetalic strip with an electrical contact on one end. When it heats up, the strip bends and pulls the contact open. When it cools it bends back closing the contact again. The problem is that electrical current, especially DC current, does not like to stop flowing. When the contact opens the arcing that occurs burns the contact a little. That will cause more heating the next time. And each time it does it, it gets a little worse.

Here is what the breaker looks like, burned.

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Old 02-22-2014, 03:45 AM   #25
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quote:Originally posted by jcurtis934

My wiring is heavier than what was in the pics. And it came from the factory with two of these cheap breakers wired in series before going to the motor for the pump. Have no idea what amperage they are. But I haven't had any issues yet with them. I did see some really nice breakers in West Marine that are used in boats since boat manufacturers are under more safety regulations than trailers. Guess I don't have to tell you that I was drooling big time when I saw them. Yes...I think I can see them in my monty... John
Series? Or did you mean parallel? In series the breaker would be wired end to end and you are only going to get whatever the maximum breaker is. That's to say if they are both 40 amps, then the circuit is only good for 40 amps. In parallel the breakers are wired side by side and the rating is the combined rating of both breakers, so if you have two 40's, the rating is 80 amps.
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:52 AM   #26
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Phil is right, from a technical standpoint. The wiring is not rated for 80 amps. But assuming a system will use 80 amps isn't right either. Unless you have something wrong (like you parked too close to a tree), the pump should not draw anything near 80 amps. I suspect a 55 amp breaker would probably cure most people's problems but there is no such animal that I'm aware of. We need to also keep in mind that a momentary sticking point in the system that causes the pump to draw more amps isn't going to burn the trailer down. The wire will get warm, but again, unless you are against the aforementioned tree, it won't get red hot, melt and start a fire.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:57 AM   #27
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quote:Originally posted by Tom S.

Phil is right, from a technical standpoint. The wiring is not rated for 80 amps. But assuming a system will use 80 amps isn't right either. Unless you have something wrong (like you parked too close to a tree), the pump should not draw anything near 80 amps. I suspect a 55 amp breaker would probably cure most people's problems but there is no such animal that I'm aware of. We need to also keep in mind that a momentary sticking point in the system that causes the pump to draw more amps isn't going to burn the trailer down. The wire will get warm, but again, unless you are against the aforementioned tree, it won't get red hot, melt and start a fire.
You are basically correct.

The system may well not heat the undersize wire to the point of being a fire hazard under normal operating conditions.

However the breaker is not there to protect the wiring under normal operating conditions it is there to protect the wiring under abnormal conditions.

Letís assume you make a panic stop and something in the compartment with the circuit breaker tips over and crushes the wire between it and the frame.

Now you warm wire becomes a glowing red hot wire.

The folks with the power plant installed in that compartment have an advantage because they will not have items in there that would be loose or flammable and the installation will be heat tolerant and even if you damage the wiring the probability of a fire in very small.

But I guarantee that the folks without the power plant use that compartment like the rest of the basement and carry all kind of stuff that could be flammable. In this case a half mile after the above mentioned panic stop the compartment would most probably be very well involved in an aggressive fire.

Come on people the wiring is only 3 or 4 feet long just determine if the wire is the proper sizes for the breaker your are installing and if not go to the hardware store and purchase the proper sizes wire. It would take you an hour to change it and you pump motor would probably have a longer life.

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Old 02-23-2014, 04:54 PM   #28
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The picture shown at the beginning of this post would render only one of the breakers in the circuit. If the breakers are in SERIES then the breaker with the weakest opening point would open first and the other would never open. If wired in parallel the circuit is then protected at about twice the breaker rating.
Most important, we should never replace a breaker with a rating higher than the Mfg. installed originally. If the units are tripping out either there is an overload problem or the breaker is defective. An overload problem should be traced and properly repaired, a defective breaker should be replaced with one the same as the original. Calculating wire size is only of many considerations when selecting circuit protection. Be safe, replace with the same size as originally installed.
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Old 02-24-2014, 12:05 AM   #29
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quote:Originally posted by paulinbaja

The picture shown at the beginning of this post would render only one of the breakers in the circuit. If the breakers are in SERIES then the breaker with the weakest opening point would open first and the other would never open. If wired in parallel the circuit is then protected at about twice the breaker rating.
Most important, we should never replace a breaker with a rating higher than the Mfg. installed originally. If the units are tripping out either there is an overload problem or the breaker is defective. An overload problem should be traced and properly repaired, a defective breaker should be replaced with one the same as the original. Calculating wire size is only of many considerations when selecting circuit protection. Be safe, replace with the same size as originally installed.
Hi

Agreed but you must take into account that Keystone will at times put the wrong sizes breaker or fuse in the system.

They will also at times install the bladder type ďPĒ traps backwards.

They will also at times install the waste tank probes upside down.

This list could go on for pages.

My trailer came with #8 wiring for the slide power circuit but was protected with a 30 amp inline fuse.

The fuse would blow every time we used the slides and the experts at the selling dealer couldnít find out what was wrong with the slides.

I got into the front of the trailer at home to find the #8 wiring and the inline fuse. I installed a 50 amp breaker and have not had a slide problem since.

#8 wire is rated for 50 amps.

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Old 03-03-2014, 11:47 AM   #30
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Slides have never blown any fuse, but jacks sure have!
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Old 03-04-2014, 12:07 AM   #31
Phil P
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quote:Originally posted by RRman

Slides have never blown any fuse, but jacks sure have!
Hi

Same here the jacks have blown my fuse several times until I marked the jacks so I donít retract or extend them too far.

Jacks have been a real problem for me. When the trailer was just a couple of months old the jacks started failing, first the driverís side jack stopped working in Illinois then the passenger jack stopped working in Arkansas then on the way back to the dealer in Florida the long screw in the center of the driverís side jack failed and the jack leg fell down on the road at 60 mph.

Then after the selling dealer telling me that I damaged the jack by retracting them too far up they returned the trailer to me with the fuse blown because they had retracted the jacks too far up. On top of that the jacks failed a year latter because the selling dealer didnít have the correct jack so he welded tabs on the sides to make them work. When the first one failed I cut it open to see why and found evidence that the welder had grounded his welding machine to the inner leg. This causes burn spots where the screw and nut make contact.

So I installed the third set of new jacks. Before installing them I ran them all the way extended by hand so as not to damage the screw and nut. Then marked them one inch below this point. I now never extend them above that mark. Then I retracted them by hand all the way up, extended them one inch and marked them there and now never retract the jacks past that mark.

I havenít blown a 30 amp fuse in the 3 years since.

Phil P
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Old 12-02-2023, 07:48 AM   #32
Leonard R.
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Originally Posted by MrRobinGrimes View Post
The Slides on our RV pause when they move in and out. We lived with the issue because I could not find the cause. Pump had plenty of fluid and ran ok. I thought it was just old and had some kind of over pressure switch built into it. I finally found the real cause on this forum so I wanted to share pictures of the installed fix.

The issue was a weak automatic breaker. It would trip then reset after a few seconds and slides would move again for 5 seconds then stop.
The breaker for the hydraulic pump is located on the back wall above the battery and below the pump.


It's a 50 amp breaker but I read that the circuit for the pump is good up to 100 amps and that the pump can pull up to 80amps. Hence the breaker popping off.

The solution is to replace the single 50amp with 2x 40 amp breakers.


These can be bought for about $5 each at any auto parts store. The local autozone didn't keep them in stock, but ordered them and they arrived the next day. Oh, I also had to buy 4 nuts. I used the nylon locking kind to keep things from rattling lose.

I mouned the two new breakers next to the old one.

(I didn't have the square head bit to remove the old one.)

Next I used two copper pipe straps to bridge the breaker poles. One on each side. Wrapped in electrical tape.



Last I mounted the wire going to the pump to the top left. (Aux side of breaker). And mounted the battery to the copper pole side of breaker. (Bat side of breaker).

After that, all three slides move in and out seamlessly.

I'm now a hero to the wife, since she was the one stuck pressing/waiting/pressing/waiting before.

Happy RVing.
I realize that I am replying to a 9 year old thread, but I am having the exact same issue with my slides on our 2020 Montana. I don't see any pictures though? If you are still around, any chance of reposting them? Thanks in advance!
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Old 12-02-2023, 08:45 AM   #33
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80A hydraulic system circuit breaker.

If you follow the fat red wire from the battery box (bottom right) it goes to the first (1) breaker left post. Then you have a short 3" jumper to the 2nd breakers right post. On this post put a short 4 gauge cable to the new 80A self resetting circuit breaker. On the other post of the new 80A circuit breaker place the cable that goes to the hydraulic motor dual polarity solenoid.
So electrically speaking, the 80A is tied to the battery + post. By doing this you have placed the hydraulic system on its own circuit breaker without changing anything else.
No need to actually replace the existing 50A one. Just put a short 4 gauge jumper from the + side (battery feed side) of the existing 50A breaker to the 80A one then put the cable from the hydraulic pump dual polarity solenoid to the other side of the 80A breaker.

80A circuit breaker
This is a link to the Automatic reset one (in the picture)
Bussmann CB181F-80 80 Type I Flush Mount High Amp Circuit Breaker, 30Vdc. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008QDI9HY..._7B0oEbRQQ00AE
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Old 12-02-2023, 10:20 AM   #34
Leonard R.
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Originally Posted by Daryles View Post
80A hydraulic system circuit breaker.

If you follow the fat red wire from the battery box (bottom right) it goes to the first (1) breaker left post. Then you have a short 3" jumper to the 2nd breakers right post. On this post put a short 4 gauge cable to the new 80A self resetting circuit breaker. On the other post of the new 80A circuit breaker place the cable that goes to the hydraulic motor dual polarity solenoid.
So electrically speaking, the 80A is tied to the battery + post. By doing this you have placed the hydraulic system on its own circuit breaker without changing anything else.
No need to actually replace the existing 50A one. Just put a short 4 gauge jumper from the + side (battery feed side) of the existing 50A breaker to the 80A one then put the cable from the hydraulic pump dual polarity solenoid to the other side of the 80A breaker.

80A circuit breaker
This is a link to the Automatic reset one (in the picture)
Bussmann CB181F-80 80 Type I Flush Mount High Amp Circuit Breaker, 30Vdc. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008QDI9HY..._7B0oEbRQQ00AE
Thanks for your help and quick response! I have ordered a new 80 amp breaker.
Quick question: Why would you not just remove the 50 amp breaker and connect in the new 80 amp one?
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Old 12-02-2023, 10:43 AM   #35
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Thanks for your help and quick response! I have ordered a new 80 amp breaker.
Quick question: Why would you not just remove the 50 amp breaker and connect in the new 80 amp one?
You could do that as well. And many have. Just a matter of what you prefer.
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Old 12-02-2023, 01:19 PM   #36
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I just replaced the 50 with a 80.
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Old 12-02-2023, 01:37 PM   #37
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I just replaced the 50 with a 80.
Thanks! I have the 80 on order. I still can't understand why someone would leave the faulty 50 connected and just add the 80. I will remove the 50 and install the 80.
Have an awesome weekend!
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Old 12-02-2023, 03:24 PM   #38
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Thanks! I have the 80 on order. I still can't understand why someone would leave the faulty 50 connected and just add the 80. I will remove the 50 and install the 80.
Have an awesome weekend!
Every time the breaker opens and closes the arcing will burn the contacts a little. The more it trips, the worse it burns as can be seen by my pic in post #24. But without the hydraulic pump connected, the current would be far less. And the 50 amp breaker is unlikely to continue to trip with that load removed, assuming it is not damaged too much.

I would also do as you plan.
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