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Old 12-31-2020, 04:16 PM   #1
sourdough
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LP Tank Regulators/Problems

I'm starting this thread as an effort to educate myself as well as others.

Over the years I've had various problems with LP regulators and hoses with replacing them curing the problem. That included one that just made "noise" all the time. Now to this trailer;

This is our first 5th wheel and it has the opposing LP tanks on each side. One side has the regular regulator and the far side has a high pressure regulator that reduces tank pressure down to 30 lbs. before going into the standard regulator. From day one these have always "sang"/"whined"/"whistled" when propane was flowing to an appliance - EXTREMELY annoying - to the point it keeps me awake.

Decided to replace them both with Marshall Excelsior units (OE is Fairview) but in checking into it I came across something that makes me wonder.....

If my reading is correct the LP tanks will put out 145 lbs. pressure (at 70 degrees) and it increases with the ambient temperature up to maybe 200 psi. Digging into the Fairview regulators their max inlet pressure is 110 psi!! That seems problematic to me to say the least. I'm wondering if the discrepancy of the existing inlet pressure vs the max pressure the regulator will handle is what's causing the noises. I figure so. The Marshall units have a max inlet pressure of 250 so that should eliminate that concern.

Just throwing that out there for pondering or any input from those that have experienced it. Seems dangerous to me that OE won't even handle normal pressures it's supposed to handle....but then again, there's probably a disclaimer somewhere in all the paperwork that states an LP tank should never be exposed to outside temps over 50 degrees or what I'm experiencing might occur.
 
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Old 12-31-2020, 06:35 PM   #2
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I have looked at all the Fairview documents for their regulators for RV's, and no where do I see any specs saying their units are only capable below 110 psi. We had a Fairview, which was the OE install, on our rig for many years, exposed to temperatures as low as 9 degrees and all the way up to over 115 degrees, and never had a problem. When it started leaking and the red/green indicator stopped working, a couple years ago, I did replace it with a Marshall MEGR-253H unit, and have had no issues with it. The Fairview may be less expensive than the Marshall regulators, but I really doubt they would or could be used if they weren't safe for RV service. We also had a slight whistle coming from the 30 psi red regulator a while back, but that went away after some time. I did purchase a new one in case it failed, but that one has remained in my spare parts tote ever since, as the red regulator is still working just fine.
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Old 12-31-2020, 09:12 PM   #3
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The red regulator, the high pressure one, is what is "whistling" etc. It converts tank pressure to 30 psi to go to the regular regulator. Here is a link to the OE Fairview high pressure regulator;

https://www.fairviewfittings.com/pro...ulators-37750/

If you look at the specs on this one it appears to be rated for 100psi. It does not state "max" but I did read that somewhere in my research on them (110 psi as I recall). I would not think that Keystone would install something like that either, but, nowhere did I see that the 630 is rated for 250 psi - anywhere. The Marshall units are (but they do have a 110psi option as I recall). Did I miss something? Possibly. Are those max numbers above 110psi available for the 630 anywhere I saw? No.

Just throwing it out there for consideration since I couldn't find anything saying my high pressure regulator was rated for anything near 200 psi...on the unit or in print.
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Old 01-01-2021, 08:25 AM   #4
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The specs definitely say 100 psig inlet pressure for that Fairview. If I was running at 50% greater than design pressure I would be whining too.


I would replace it with the Marshall 250 psig. That's what I did years ago.
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Old 01-01-2021, 09:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_TX View Post
The specs definitely say 100 psig inlet pressure for that Fairview. If I was running at 50% greater than design pressure I would be whining too.


I would replace it with the Marshall 250 psig. That's what I did years ago.
It's in the mail
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Old 01-01-2021, 11:33 AM   #6
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OE LP Regulators Pose Danger??

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_TX View Post
The specs definitely say 100 psig inlet pressure for that Fairview. If I was running at 50% greater than design pressure I would be whining too.


I would replace it with the Marshall 250 psig. That's what I did years ago.

I meant to address your comment above in the previous post. Everything I see says the Fairview high pressure regulator for the off side LP tank and the normal regulator on the other tank are rated for 100psi. The LP tank puts out almost 150psi at approx. 70 degrees and just gets higher as temps increase (where we stay generally). To me that seems dangerous and a possible disaster in the making.

I attribute all the noises from the regulators (I've now identified either will do it depending on the tank being used) to the pressure being higher than the regulator was designed for. I suspect this overpressure situation will eventually cause the regulators to leak or worse.

I may be missing something, and I'm not an expert, but nothing in any documentation I've found tells me differently. Common sense seems to say that Keystone would not intentionally put undersized regulators on new trailers knowingly....but, they did it with tires for years.

My thought would be if you have purchased a new trailer that you look at those regulators. If they are those indicated I would insist they be replaced under warranty. Mine is under warranty but I'm in it in FL and not going to take it in. They don't cost that much and they're easy to change. I'd rather do that than wake up to a who knows what situation. Just a heads up to be aware of.
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Old 01-01-2021, 11:40 AM   #7
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I am correcting my post as I think the answer is in this link, https://www.etrailer.com/Propane/JR-...207-30325.html
This is the sentence that I read: Regulates 500,000 Btu/hr or 30 psig based on 100 psig inlet What the 100 psi is, just a reference, so that at 100 psi inlet pressure, the regulator will provide 30 psi outlet pressure. That isn't a maximum pressure rating. So, at higher inlet pressure, the regulator outlet pressure will be higher going to the regulator on the other side of the trailer, but will still be quite a bit less than cylinder pressure so the gas will not re-liquify in the crossover pipe, which is the purpose of having that high pressure regulator.
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Old 01-01-2021, 12:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by rohrmann View Post
I'm beginning to think the red regulator is a dual stage regulator that drops the inlet pressure to 100 psi in the first stage and then to 30 psi at the outlet in the second stage. It would be nice if they described the specs a little better, but they know it will be used on the pressures developed in a propane cylinder, so it must be designed to work at those pressures.

Yes, the documentation is lacking in additional info but is specific in what it does provide. On their website Fairview lists their dual stage regulators but the GR-630B is not listed as one. From the descriptions I've read it takes incoming pressure and reduces it to 30psi to send to the auto changeover regulator. My Fairview high pressure regulator is stamped Model GR-630B. On the website description of this particular high pressure regulator it states it is to be used on "gas grills, smokers and fish cookers" - that's it. Others do specify RV usage so ??

Not sure what's going on with it or why, but I do know I've read enough to know something is fishy. I'm not going to assume Keystone knew what they were doing as that could be fatal The Marshalls are on their way (pun). Just want folks to be aware so they can make their own choices.
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Old 01-01-2021, 12:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
Yes, the documentation is lacking in additional info but is specific in what it does provide. On their website Fairview lists their dual stage regulators but the GR-630B is not listed as one. From the descriptions I've read it takes incoming pressure and reduces it to 30psi to send to the auto changeover regulator. My Fairview high pressure regulator is stamped Model GR-630B. On the website description of this particular high pressure regulator it states it is to be used on "gas grills, smokers and fish cookers" - that's it. Others do specify RV usage so ??

Not sure what's going on with it or why, but I do know I've read enough to know something is fishy. I'm not going to assume Keystone knew what they were doing as that could be fatal The Marshalls are on their way (pun). Just want folks to be aware so they can make their own choices.

I've changed my post you quoted, and this may be the answer to the 100 psi question.
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Old 01-01-2021, 01:20 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by rohrmann View Post
I've changed my post you quoted, and this may be the answer to the 100 psi question.

Thanks, and I had seen that from etrailer. My assumption was that the 30psi across the 60" span (or however it was phrased) was the max allowed from the off side tank to the other side. If the regulator is only capable of limiting the output to 30psi at 100psi, what does it do at 200psi...60? Looking at the chart for the 630 it appears that way but it is certainly not definitive.

I'll have to look back but I'm sure there is some sort of regulation dictating the max of 30psi for safety reasons. I know I read of some that have disregarded that and just removed the high pressure regulator and let the auto change regulator handle it.

Here's why the off side high pressure regulator is limited to 30psi max:

"If the hose is 60 inches or longer, a step-down single-stage regulator is required with a pressure rating of no more than 30 psi. With a long hose under full pressure, it is possible for the vapor to condense into liquid. This liquid could accumulate in the lowest point of the hose and cause a drop in pressure. Lower pressure from the step-down regulator prevents condensation from occurring."

I know it's a bit in the weeds but my concern is the lack of info/spec on the inlet pressure, which is what apparently is driving my noises on these. At some point there IS a max pressure that the regulator will fail. Marshall gives you the max input for their units and apparently whether it's 100 or 200 the output is still 30psi as it's supposed to be. I won't belabor the point any further but I'm replacing mine. If it hadn't been carrying on and having to look into a replacement, I'd be sitting here without a worry. I appreciate your input.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:13 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
Here's why the off side high pressure regulator is limited to 30psi max:

"If the hose is 60 inches or longer, a step-down single-stage regulator is required with a pressure rating of no more than 30 psi. With a long hose under full pressure, it is possible for the vapor to condense into liquid. This liquid could accumulate in the lowest point of the hose and cause a drop in pressure. Lower pressure from the step-down regulator prevents condensation from occurring."
Thank you for this thread. I have NO background in LP systems. Our Fairview regulator doesn't seem to be switching between tanks. I saw the red regulator on the off tank side and couldn't figure out what it was for. Now I know.

BTW if our auto regulator is bad, what model do you recommend replacing with?
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Old 01-14-2021, 06:19 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by jdarwin View Post
Thank you for this thread. I have NO background in LP systems. Our Fairview regulator doesn't seem to be switching between tanks. I saw the red regulator on the off tank side and couldn't figure out what it was for. Now I know.

BTW if our auto regulator is bad, what model do you recommend replacing with?

I have read positive assessments, and use, Marshall Excelsior components.
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Old 01-15-2021, 04:06 AM   #13
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Just noticed yesterday that the red DS regulator on ours is whining. Guess it's time to find a replacement.
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Old 01-15-2021, 08:55 AM   #14
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Yes, thanks for this thread!! Learning new things every day. Our red one (door side) has whined, moaned, buzzed, you name it since day one. I took it in last spring and the dealer replaced it under warranty with no improvement at all. It went back to the dealer in December and now Keystone denies warranty because we're over the one year warranty period and the dealer said it's normal, "most of them make that sound"... Now the changeover valve will not switch to the door side tank. Looks like I'm on my own with replacements. I've also read that the pigtail off the tanks can be a source of the noise as well??

Again, thanks for all the info and pointing towards a brand that may have better results.

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Old 01-15-2021, 09:50 PM   #15
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Sourdough, If what RV manufacturers have been installing is illegal or outside of the standards of the RV industry they would be stopped. Maybe Montana's come with less expensive parts does not mean they are unsafe. In all your investigations have you ever found any issue due to the manufacturer of the gas valves? If they are unsafe they would be causing problems long before you came along and noticed an issue. You seem like a hammer looking for a nail. People on this forum like most forums come looking for solutions to actual problems. They do not represent ALL the owners of Montanas. If your red valve is making noise replace it. I did. It does not make the Montana brand deceptive or wrong. All the people thinking they are smarter than the engineers at Montana and deciding to eliminate the red valve are looking for trouble. If you want to "upgrade" your LP system go ahead. What came from the factory is fully usable for hundreds of thousands of RV owners.
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Old 01-16-2021, 08:31 AM   #16
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Sourdough, If what RV manufacturers have been installing is illegal or outside of the standards of the RV industry they would be stopped. Maybe Montana's come with less expensive parts does not mean they are unsafe. In all your investigations have you ever found any issue due to the manufacturer of the gas valves? If they are unsafe they would be causing problems long before you came along and noticed an issue. You seem like a hammer looking for a nail. People on this forum like most forums come looking for solutions to actual problems. They do not represent ALL the owners of Montanas. If your red valve is making noise replace it. I did. It does not make the Montana brand deceptive or wrong. All the people thinking they are smarter than the engineers at Montana and deciding to eliminate the red valve are looking for trouble. If you want to "upgrade" your LP system go ahead. What came from the factory is fully usable for hundreds of thousands of RV owners.




Wow! Defensive are we? I've read and re read my posts and can't get from them what drives your attack.

No hammer looking for a nail here. Just someone that actually looks at things and asks questions vs blindly thinking what Keystone, or anyone else, does was done for my benefit.

I do NOT think that Keystone is being deceptive intentionally but I do think that they, and the rest of the RV manufacturers, will pick the lowest cost product to fill a need, and, as I tried to point out, the specs on a particular component MAY not be all it's supposed to be.

If you will read my first, and subsequent posts objectively, you will see that I'm not "hammering" anyone or anything. I found something that IMO is a little off and thought it might be of interest to others, and it seemingly is. In my first post I said I was trying to educate myself as well as others reaching out for any experience on the topic - hmmm, seeking "solutions". Just blindly replacing a faulty unit "because" when the documentation raises questions about their capabilities is not what I do.

If the unit is "whistling/whining/etc," and under warranty it should be replaced as I mentioned; preferably with a different unit although Keystone may not authorize it. If one wants to "assume" their way through life always figuring someone else took care of it for them, they are more than welcome to do so. I however will not be doing it; I've seen the tragic results from folks doing just that. Hoping you have a better Saturday!
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:43 AM   #17
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The original Fairview crap on my montana failed very early in life, so I replaced both the 30psi red reg and the auto changeover reg to Marshall parts. My old rubber hoses were also replaced when cracks started to appear. Face it, building trailers is a cost sensitive business. They aren't designed for lots of long towing miles or full time living in my opinion or the cost would be well north of 100k bucks and the dealers wouldn't give any discounts from the stated keystones price.
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