Excellent info on weights - Montana Owners Club

richfaa · 11-24-2008, 09:28 AM

Felt I had to copy this post from RVnet, This is a guy who has the credentials to comment and the info is educational.

"It has been debated before but I have yet to see anyone with any enforcement experience comment on the subject.

Then you haven't done a search on the topic. I have responded on this topic several times. I've responded so many times that I've about given up responding to anything involving weights. The topic is brought up every second Tuesday and everytime someone responds who has no knowledge of the laws but just repeats the same old campfire stories which are flat out wrong.

I am a retired state police commander. I commanded a district which had the highest fine producing fixed scales in the state. In additiona I was one of 2 of the first Troops in the state to be certified as motor carrier safety inspectors. By IL statute only the ISP has the authority to conduct MCS inspections. I taught truck weight and MCS law at our academy. Over the years I weighed a lot of trucks. I also weighed a lot of RVs of various styles, not because of the law but because the RVers asked to be weighed to have their loading checked. Never ever saw any of them even come close to approaching max legal weights.
Simple answer to your question. The sticker on your truck is placed there by the manufacturer. It's like the tag on your mattress. It's required by law to tell the consumer what is in that product. After sales that sticker doesn't have to remain on the vehicle and there are a lot of vehicles legally on the road today which no longer has the sticker because of body repair, etc. The manufacturers do not make the laws. Think about this too. Do you think every Troop or weigh master out there has memorized what all the manufacturers stickers say on every style of truck made? Then toss into the mix 4X4 v 4X2, same model trucks but with different engines, same model trucks but with different axle ratings, or same model trucks but just different years. We don't care what the sticker says or even if there is a sticker. What the manufacturers put on that sticker is not law, it's just a to let the consumer know what that particular vehicle's design specs are.
The max weight laws are generally 20K on a single axle, 34K on a tandum axle and gross is 80K. These are federally mandated limits. I say "generally" because gross depends on the bridge length of your vehicle (distance between the front and rear axle) and the number of axles. The 34K can also vary depending the distance between the tandum axles. It could be more. Weight limits may also be posted less than the max on certain roads.
As an RVer you don't have to worry about exceeding the 20K single axle, 34K tandum axle, and 80K gross. There's no way you are going to be anywhere close to any of those numbers. Think about it. On your 5er you put 16" E range tires on a 5K or 6K rated axle. Your suspension and tires wouldn't handle 20K or 34K loads. And no way are you getting anywhere close to 20K on the steer or drive axle on your pickup. Your Big Country doesn't even come close to approaching 34K on the tandums. Your entire rig is likely to be about 20K total. You could not load your 5er and 2500 with enough toys to get close to exceeding the weight limits.

adamrmathis wrote:

What would a LEO know about the law? LEO's only enforce it and they are subect to the same errors the rest of us are. Our lawyers and judges can't even decide on what is right or wrong, and now you want an opinion from a LEO? I'm no trying to bash any LEO's, just tring to point out that being a LEO doesn't make one correct.

Just so you'll know, as a LEO I sat on quite a few trials involving overweights where my only role was to advise the prosecuting attorney on the law and provide expert testimony on weight law. I have also been contacted numerous times by judges for clarification on weight laws.
So what do LEOs know about the law? FYI, many of us not only have been tasked with writing statutes but we also review and comment on many of the statutes prior to passage. Many of us have been declared as subject matter experts by the courts and legislatures. Before a person can enforce the law they have to know not only what it says but also what it means. So what do LEOs know about the law? We work with it every day of our lives. What does an electrician know about electricity? What does a welder know about metals? What does a doctor know about medicine? It's all the same kind of thing. You have to know about your profession if you expect to be able to do it.
So what's the average person know about the law? Truthfully and sadly absolutely nothing. Their entire knowledge of the law is from watching TV and the movies. From that vast "experience" many consider themselves experts.

* This post was edited 11/12/07 10:17am by Wadcutter *

rogue · 11-24-2008, 10:38 AM

Rich, interesting post, thanks for bringing it over so we can read it.
Bob

HughM · 11-24-2008, 10:51 AM

adamrmathis wrote:
What would a LEO know about the law? LEO's only enforce it and they are subect to the same errors the rest of us are.
My response is Oh how innocent some of the public are....As a retired LEO let me inform you that those in law enforcement had better know the "elements" of the offense or they will suffer cross examination on the witness stand by an defense attorney. Once is enough. The next time that LEO will know the law and the "elements of the crime."
After enough times on the witness stand with credentials to back it up I have been declared an "expert witness" many times and my testimony was taken as fact.
Hugh

TLightning · 11-24-2008, 10:53 AM

That's all fine and dandy...until the lawyers get involved...then all bets are off. If somebody can win a gazillion dollar lawsuit because she spilled hot coffee on herself, no telling what could happen with an RV accident.

richfaa · 11-24-2008, 11:25 AM

100% correct Tom which is the prime reason I choose to stay within the Manufacturer Ratings and spec's. I thought this was one of the best post I have ever seen on"the law" from a person qualified to define it.The key words in his post are " The manufacturers do not make the laws"

Like HughM I was certified to "testify as a expert" on my responsibility within the national airspace system.You had better know your subject when testifying in a court of law.

Delaine and Lindy · 11-24-2008, 12:11 PM

Thats the reason you don't see RV's being weight, the comments were more on the Federal law involving the Commerical weights. The DOT's have more than enough to do with the Commerical traffic than to worry about a RV'er. I have stood in front of those Diesel Bears as they are called, and believe me you had better have you ducks in order. There are to many areas you can as a commerical driver have to answer for. I never ever had a problem with the Diesel Bears, in most ever instance I was treated as a Professional and I also treated them very professional, the reason you would have to be a complete IDIOT to get into a P-ing contest with a LEO who has a badge and a gun. There will always be questions about RV weighs and there will always be and opinion posted, and in some cases the opinion is wrong. I will say do your research, because in the end you have to make the decisions and your the one who will be held responsible. And go to a Cat Scale or a platform scale and weight your RV. I have read a lot of what wadcutter has posted, all are very good post and very educational. As I was always told, "Boy" just load the wagon and don't worry about the Mule. Life is Good. GBY....

Bob Pasternak · 11-24-2008, 03:17 PM

Rich (faa): I've read numerous of Wadcutters posts and I've spent over 40 years with the large trucks in every state and my experience told me a long time ago that most of these so-called "weight-police" on these sites have very little if any idea of what they're talking about. I'll pull/haul what I want where I want. As he said, don't worry about the tags. They are just some engineers idea of "CYA". You wouldn't believe the weight we put on trucks when I drove at Bosche Proving Grounds west of South Bend.

Glenn and Lorraine · 11-25-2008, 12:42 AM

All I have to say is Thank You Rich for this posting.

Wiarton William · 11-25-2008, 03:27 AM

I agree with both the posts in the first post by richfaa.... Unfortunatley I have been out of the loop for so long that memories and fact are somewhat lost....Being declared an expert witness in court is feather in the cap of most LEO's.. but then if a two bit lawyer can convince a Judge that the facts of the case are all wrong and the accused is really the victim...doesnt say much for the expert thing....been there done that...

richfaa · 11-25-2008, 03:36 AM

I had that post saved in my favorites file for some time and came across it the other day.I have always stated that manufacturers rating and spec's were a statement by the manufacturer of the capabilities of its product. Truck, camper,auto, toaster, Tv set, etc and should be adhered to instead of making excuses as to why we should not. There is a spec on the weight capabilities of my hitch, why not ignore that spec. I note folks buying a bigger hitch than needed..why do that ??? We are not commercial vehicles so do not come under any of those rules and regs so we can do as we please and many of us do just that. IMO we should fall under those rules.

In Ohio the "weight police " are the "Motor Carrier enforcement unit" a division of the Ohio State Patrol. We deal with those folks every year with our bus inspections. All of my education on weight and safety issues came from asking them questions and being required to operate within their rules.

The poster was not offering the post as a cop out but as a educational explanation from a qualified person as to legalities. But there will be folks who will say he does not know what he is talking about..which is a cop-out.

Don... The problem I had with being certified as a expert is that it is impossible to know everything and all a lawyer had to do is ask you one question that you do not know the answer to and your credibility was in the crapper. Usually in a pre testimony deal questions were restricted to the specifics of the issue before the court, Even then it was a crap shoot. We did many "certifications" that is presenting the conditions and test results of the systems involved in a incident. I managed to never have to testify in court as a expert.

I never felt privileged to be labeled a expert although being so labeled made my paycheck look better.

exav8tr · 11-25-2008, 03:44 AM

Rich, In our system, unfortunately, there are two sets of laws. One is called criminal law and the other is civil, I'm sure you know this. The OJ trials were the best example of this inequity of our system. It may be possible to get out of criminal prosecution but yet another to get out of civil prosecution.. Just fuel for fodder.......

Glenn and Lorraine · 11-25-2008, 04:32 AM

After all these years of reading the RV forums and in particular the "Weight Police" threads I have learned one very important lesson...

It does not matter what any individuals FACTUAL CREDINTAILS are. Be him PRO or CON on any subject, their will always be those A-holes that will ABOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, WITH OUT A DOUBT disagree. This is the "Nature of the Beast".
That expert can argue until he is blue in the face. He can prove he is 100% correct beyond the shadow of a doubt and yet he will still be called an idiot. This is especially so at RV.Net and any number of other forums.

It's not unlike Lonnie and I. While neither of us claim to be an "EXPERT" about tires we do speak from many years in the tire business. This experience does not make us "EXPERTS" but it does make us knowledgeable thru years of experience. And Yet we do get the "expert?" who argues the point we try to make. More often that not that individuals expertise comes from the fact that he just bought tires and he was told exactly, right or wrong, what that dealer knew he wanted to hear. If his tire guy says it is so than Lenny and I have to be wrong. Funny thing about that tire guy, just 2 weeks ago he was saying "Do you want fries with that?".

richfaa · 11-25-2008, 04:54 AM

Boy are you ever correct Glenn... Phil Been on some of those juries on both types cases. Criminal jury of 12...beyond a reasonable doubt.. Civil jury of 8..a preponderate of evidence. You can be involved in both... Was on a civil jury where the guy had already been convicted in a criminal case(did not know that till after the trial)He shot a person..now he was being sued for the expense and loss of service caused by the shooting. It may be unlikely that you would be involved in a criminal case for being unsafe or overweight but most likely would be involed in a Civil case where it is a easier to find fault. As our attorney and friend once said....Rich.If I have to represent you in court..don't make it hard on me...

hazmic · 11-25-2008, 10:20 AM

I have read several posts about the weight police and do I have to worry about them. I have gotten to the point I don't even look at them but read this one because Rich had posted it. I know here in Iowa that they don't even want you to stop and bother them. They are not unintested in weighing RV's. We are private vehicles and do not have to stop at any place to weight one. If you want weights on you vehicle you can go to a truck stop at a CAT scale or if you have a elevator[grain] they will weigh you probably. Now to my question as I am nosy has anyone have had to weight and was they given a ticket. If not then why do we worry? I can see doing it to find out what we weight but the law [I THINK] dose not care or they are really bored.

richfaa · 11-25-2008, 10:52 AM

hazmic.. I have always known that I am not pulling commercial therefore not subject to any of the commercial laws. I have no idea why folks get so worked up about that subject as it is clear that we are not commercial vehicles and the weight and safety laws are directed toward them. Many folks have no clue about the subject and post false information both ways. I thought this guys post was informative and he was qualified to present the information. My concern is one of safety and it is my belief that the manufacturers specs and ratings although not legally binding and I hope that is clear by now, are meaningful and because I choose to stay within them and most RV'er do, I am called 'Weight police" in a negative manner. However when someone asks a question about what they can pull I do not understand whay we can not suggest that they do the home work and check all the numbers on the truck and camper without being called..weight police.. I have never known first hand of a RV being ticketed for being over weight. I am not sure it would be legal for a LEO to pull a RV over just to weigh it. Safety check perhaps. I have seen that.

indy roadrunner · 11-25-2008, 10:59 AM

I know I am going to be sorry for responding as the "weight police" are ready to attack. I know that with my set up I am marginal not on gross but on Pin weight. However, because of that margin I am a firm beliver in the "Smith System" in which I teach CDL drivers of semi rigs of much more weight than I am trailing. I think if you know your capabilites is pulling and handling the "envelope" then you will be much safer than those who are within the door post specs and drive like %^&$##. I know I need longer braking distance and allow for that in my following distance and I drive "my eyes" at least 15 seconds down the road. My following distance is a minimum of 3 seconds. So what are the 5 keys of space cushion driving?
1.Aim high in steering (Look 15 seconds into your future)
2.Get the big picture (look all around, check your mirrors frequently)
3. Keep your eyes moving, check mirrors, road signs don't stare at fixed objects or tail lights
4.Leave yourself an out (chose the lane of least ristance checking both sides)
5. Make sure they see you ( use signals, blow horn, flash lights)

exav8tr · 11-25-2008, 11:09 AM

Phil, that is a great reminder, Thanks!!!

hazmic · 11-25-2008, 11:12 AM

Roadrunner. You are so right on that. I seam to have heard that when I took drivers training back in the late 50's. Also was taught to watch for brake lights in front of you. If the lights are coming on it usually means to slow down or be ready to stop. Let up on the gas and be ready to step on the brakes. I think you get the picture. There could be ice between you and the car in front of you.

richfaa · 11-25-2008, 12:37 PM

Phil (Indy) What you say is absolutly correct. You know those things because you have professional training. Most RV drivers do not. Except for the rules of the road that all drivers follow the Rv driver can pull any size or weight RV without a second of training (in most States) It is my opinion that the RV driver should be able to demonstrate driving skills and be aware of the capabilities of their trucks and campers. Now am not saying that the CDL holder is a better driver I am saying that he /she has more training and experience ..how they use that is another story.

Wiarton William · 11-26-2008, 07:11 AM

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by indy roadrunner
what are the 5 keys of space cushion driving?
1.Aim high in steering (Look 15 seconds into your future)
2.Get the big picture (look all around, check your mirrors frequently)
3. Keep your eyes moving, check mirrors, road signs don't stare at fixed objects or tail lights
4.Leave yourself an out (chose the lane of least ristance checking both sides)
5. Make sure they see you ( use signals, blow horn, flash lights)

..When I joined the ranks of the retired and bought my RV,,, I had little actual experience at towing anything bigger than a boat trailer...but I have had 30 years of pursuit driver training and speciallized interceptor status...I spent a few days with he CHP in Sacramento CA doing their version of pursuit driver training...(scared the wits out of me)I used all knowledge and basically adapted my training to towing..

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