Frozen low point drains - again

[sreigle]

Well, my insulating the cold point drains didn't help. I wrapped them with roll fibreglass insulation, then the foam tubes, then another couple of layers of fibreglass followed by duct tape to hold it all in place. Dick, of RC and Samantha, told me at the rally that was not enough for Michigan but I thought maybe it would do for Kansas City.

Wrong. The low here in Independence last night was 10F with windchills around -4F. The outside temperature as I write this, about 2:30 p.m., is 17F.

We have cold water in the bathroom but not the kitchen. We do not have hot water anywhere. That points to the low point drains because on the 3295RK the city water inlet is at mid-coach, street side, across from the entry door and next to the bathroom. The low point drains are near the aft curb side, just forward of the water heater which is at the aft curb side corner. So I think the route for incoming water is to the bathroom first, then back to the kitchen and water heater with low point drains in the route. Thus we have cold water in the bathroom, fortunately. That means we can flush the toilet and can fill a pan to heat on the stove if needed.

I ripped off the insulation on the low point drains and put a hair dryer on them for 30 minutes. Still no water flow. This really froze up good.

I then ran to Tractor Supply and bought a 3-ft heat tape, wrapped it around the low point drains, insulated, taped, and plugged it in. It's supposed to generate enough heat to keep it from freezing but I don't know if it will heat things up enough to thaw out far enough back up into the belly. We can only hope.

If not, then tomorrow those lines should thaw out. High for today is forecast for 20 but looks like 17 is all we're going to get. Tonight's low is supposed to be 22 with highs tomorrow of 50 so I guess we have a warm front coming in. Hopefully they're right about that.

Just wanted to point out my insulation job didn't do it. We'll see if the heat tape does. Later this week they're forecasting overnight lows of 9, 5, and 6F on successive nights. Oh joy.

[Montana_657]

I bet you're plumbed like we were. 20 feet or so of extra water line laying on top of the belly cover, to save drilling a couple of holes and running the pipes through warmer spaces.

Not much you can do in this weather Steve, unless you can get inside somewhere.... a parking garage maybe??

The pipes cut with a pruning shear, and the Flair It fittings are reuseable.. you may need a few extras. If you can get warm and dry, re routeing the plumbing isn't a big job. Just no fun in the cold and wind.

[sreigle]

Thanks, Gruffy. I'll probably have to wait for warmer weather to check that out. We probably do have the same problem. Last year the low point drains were the problem and we were fine otherwise. But 14 was our low last winter, at least while we were here. Still no water (7pm) so it will be tomorrow before they thaw out. If we didn't have water in the bathroom it would be a whole lot worse. There will be no hot shower tonight and Vicki delayed doing laundry since we need hot water for the whites load.

[rames14]

Steve -
It's six degrees here in the Chicago area, so I can empathize with your dilema. We had a house once where they didn't get the water lines deep enough and they froze solid. Had to have a backhoe come in and then attach a welder to thaw the pipes. After we got it thawed out, we were told to keep the water running a trickle and wouldn't have a problem, and we didn't. I know it isn't good to have water running into the septic continually, but it might be a fix when you are that cold. Doesn't have to be much, as long as it's moving it won't freeze. Unfortunately, the welder idea only works with copper pipe. Best of luck. By the way, thanks for the help on the city water line. Got it drained last weekend. Couldn't get the low water drains loose to drain them, but like you said in an earlier post, they probably have the RV antifreeze in anyway. Unfortunately, we had just left my mom and dad's house at 10:00 am and he passed away at about 5:00 pm so we had to run right back to Iowa. Spent the last week taking care of family matters. At least I have the spring and the Montana to help keep my mind occupied.

[Montana_2180]

Steve,

I am east of St Louis, so I got the same cold you did...and the same low point freeze-up!

Remember, I heat taped all the way from the front (inside the belly) to the back and across the trailer to the toilet...

Well, this is the 2nd freeze up...turns out I had the thermostats for a couple of my heat tape strings tucked in to the insulation so they were not kicking on because they were up against the upstream heat tape which was kicking on so the thermostat "thought" it was warm out...oh well!

I fixed that and insulated the drain points much like you and left for MI for the Lion's-Vikings game with my brothers (Yeah Vikes! They pulled it off!) so I missed the cold weather, but when I got back this afternoon, the cold water was working all throughout, but no hot...so out came the hairdryer (inside, on the lines below the kitchen sink)...

Problem is, the heat tape was about a foot too short to reach the low point drains, so I thought I could get away with insulating the pipe and the rest of the tape would make it warm enough...not a chance...so I need to go get about 6 ft more heat tape and do the drain point clear up to the bottom of the sink...that should keep me safe...

Hope you get your water back soon!

Chip

[rames14]

Steve -
I hope you finally thawed out. You will probably be eyeballing that new Cambridge about now. I figure by the time we're ready to go for months at a time they'll have all of the cold weather stuff perfected - thanks to your trials and tribulations. Kinda' makes you like Lewis and Clark. Hope all is well.

[sreigle]

Thanks everyone. Yes, we're thawed out for the moment and I now have heat-taped the low point drains. I have not dropped the bellypan and heat taped the lines in the belly but might think of doing that if we have further problems. Can't do it until warmer weather, though. The heat tape on the low point drains was not enough to thaw us out right away but hopefully will keep the drains from freezing up again. I'm afraid we may have a pipe laying against the frame or possibly outside the arctic insulation blanket like others mentioned they had to deal with. Reason I say that, I was running errands when the water came back on. Remember we always had cold water upstairs. Vicki said the cold and hot came on in the kitchen (we left faucets open so we could see when it came back) several minutes beofre the hot water came back upstairs. Based on our floorplan and how the water pipes seem to run, we must have someplace else freezing up, between the low point drains and the upstairs bathroom, for hot water. So even with heat tape on the l.p. drains we may freeze up somewhere else on the hot water line for upstairs. Here's the reason I'm worried, our forecast for the next few days:

This is from weather.com. Our local tv weatherperson says -2F for Thursday night and 12 for the high.

Day High Low
Tue 46 21
Wed 26 8
Thu 18 1
Fri 21 10

I guess we're going to find out how well this thing does in really cold weather. We're entertaining a prospective Montana owner couple on Thursday afternoon so I imagine they'll be interested in how well it does and will find out first hand.

[CountryGuy]

Yikes Steve

You got extra thermies for Thursday night??? Better wrap Monty in them!

[Montana_1280]

Hi Steve,
Man can I relate to your problems. Our 3295 drains froze at 6 degrees here in central VA Sunday night, 14 last night. Did not expect temps. to be that low on Monday morning. Hope there are no leaks when they thaw. The heat tape is on now but has not thawed in 12 hours. I am going to attempt other means this afternoon; both extenal and internal heat. Tried the hair dryer, no success..It supposed to be above freezing for a few days so may have to wait it out. You definitely have my sympathy. Good news is, I am out of here next week and headed for Florida Keys.
Good luck…Happy trails

[Gypsy]

Hi Steve,
Sorry you're having problems. I experienced the same thing with my '02 3295RK while I was in New Hampshire this time last year. Every time the temp dropped below 10 degrees F, my water lines froze up. When I finally got the Monty into a dealer in Indiana in January, he dropped the belly pan and cut a hole in the heater duct under the kitchen peninsula. The ducting goes all the way underneath, but, because there's no outlet under the cabinet the heat doesn't keep the water lines there from freezing.

Also, I once left the water dripping as suggested by others, and then it froze in the sewer line and backed up into the kitchen, flooding the whole place! Be sure to insulate the sewer hose. Even then, I don't recommend leaving a faucet dripping unless attended in person (and while you're awake)!

Good luck surviving the cold weather, and I hope this helps.

[Sue]

Can't wait to FULLTIME...Sounds like so much fun!!


Good Luck Steve, let's us know how it goes.

[Random Line]

[quote]Originally posted by sreigle
Can't do it until warmer weather, though. The heat tape on the low point drains was not enough to thaw us out
---------------------------------

Steve:

Good luck. Unless you head south soon your going your going to need to go to the winter camping rules.

Here are some that I read somewhere:

1. Winterize tanks and lines.

2. Flush with RV antifreeze.

3. Buy water in gallon jugs and antifreeze in qts for personal use.

4. Keep truck running, tank full of good fuel and unit ready for a quick getaway.

[Sue]

Steve,
Been thinking since my last post to this topic, what we do at the barn because we can't use heat tape, heaters etc for obvious reasons is our trainer leaves the water trickling so that it can't freeze. Is this an option for you???

[sreigle]

Yes, we're doing that right now. Didn't think I'd need to do that with the insulation I put on the low point drains. Boy, was I wrong. So I replaced that insulation with heat tape, plus insulation, and.... well, see my post I'm about to write about freezing up the hot water at 31 degrees. This one has me baffled.

[Parrothead]

I am so glad I am in Calif. right now. However, I lived in Upstate New York for ten years and some of that in a mobile home. I tried leaving the water running as you do in a house, but my drain pipe froze and broke. When I got it replaced, they put a heat tape on it and that helped. So my suggestion is if you leave the water running, heat tape the drain also. Several weeks ago we got up with no water, it was about 28, and it was the park's pumps that froze.

[sreigle]

Thanks everyone. I hope the rest of you who froze up are back up and running now. It's been a real trial. Today's episode turned out not to be freezing but a failed checkvalve on the outlet side of the water heater. It's fixed now and water is heating. I can shower tonight! Vicki will probably appreciate that.

Gypsy, you convinced me not to use the water dripping method. That's really scary. Tonight's low is now forecast for 13 with subzero windchill, 18 for a high tomorrow, down as low as zero one night this week with single digits the others. We won't be above freezing again for four days if the forecast holds. So, hopefully all I've done will keep us from freezing. Gypsy, you have me worried about under the peninsula, though. It's too cold and dark for me to go out and drop the bellypan plus it's a big chore to do it since I've foamed in all the openings but if we have problems then I'll have to do that before next winter. We pull out of here two weeks from today. We'll beeline south before turning east and hopefully we won't have any more problems this winter. Sigh.

[Sue]

quote:Originally posted by sreigle
Gypsy, you convinced me not to use the water dripping method.

Steve, what warning??? Was it on a PM? Can you share?

[Gypsy]

Steve,
Glad you got things thawed out. I know how good that hot shower will feel after having everything frozen. Enjoy a long one!

Just to clarify for Sue and others, the problem with leaving a faucet dripping to prevent water lines from freezing is that, when the water drains down through the holding tank and (presumably) through an open valve into the sewer hose to the sewer inlet in the ground, it has to pass through the drain pipes under the coach, which may be below the belly and non-insulated, as well as through the sewer hose that may not be insulated. In my case, last year in New Hampshire, I insulated the sewer hose, and it got covered with several feet of snow which further helped with insulation. But the drain pipes were exposed, and water could freeze up anywhere along that path. A slow drip seems to be a little thing, but when it begins to freeze, the ice can build up and eventually cause a blockage in the drain, causing stoppage which will result in the dripping water filling up the holding tank and overflowing the sink where the faucet is dripping. It only takes a few hours. If you leave the faucet dripping and go to bed, the freezing in the drain could start and you'll wake up to a very unpleasant wet floor, plus lots of other associated problems.

Dropping the belly pan isn't a simple task, so you're wise not to attempt it in cold weather, Steve. And I don't know exactly where the RV shop cut the opening in the ducting in my coach, or how large they made the hole. They did all this work in a heated building, I might add, while it was 1F outside. And it took them 2 days. But I know it solved the problem. My water lines thawed and I didn't have the problem again. Of course, I was in warmer weather (20F) by then also. It was gratifying to know that the efforts I'd made to insulate the drain points hadn't been for naught; it kept them from freezing but the real problem was underneath the peninsula cabinet between the flooring and the belly where no hair dryer or heater could reach it.

One last thing I learned from the experience, whether it's helpful or not, still interesting. Only animals and humans are affected by wind chill. Wind chill has no effect on inanimate objects like water, only the actual temperature. So, a temp of 33F (above freezing) with a wind chill of 15 will not make water freeze.

[Montana_1280]

No doubt it was low point drains. Mine freed up yesterday when the temps riched the 40's. Don't see any leaks. They are heat taped now so when the low teens expected for weekend arrive I am ready this time. Boy, I can't wait for sunny, warm south Florida....less than a week departure. Happy trails.

[Montana_31]

Just as a side note, you might want to keep a package of baby wipes on hand to freshen up with if your water freezes up again. Some boondockers do this just to conserve water.