Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > General Discussions about our Montanas
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-26-2020, 07:29 AM   #41
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
"To return to my explanation, the black tank IS effectively a closed system up until the point the liquid has risen to the top of the vent pipe."

As long as a tank is vented, it is not a closed system. If at some point the vent is blocked, the tank then becomes a closed system. That action causes pressure to build in all directions as a stronger force introduces volume (water) into that space. Just like a hydraulic ram.

I agree in that with what we know, the tank failed before any fluids reached the roof. However, that is insignificant. The tank failed by the waters weight exerting static pressure downward. Not by an excessive hydraulic pressure exerting pressure in all directions within the tank.

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving.
 
__________________
2016 3160, Legacy, Sailuns, Splendide 2100 xc vented, 1 1/2" axle lift blocks, disk brakes. 2014 Ram 3500 SRW SWB 4X4 6.7 Aisin Mega Cab, EBC slotted disks and brakes, Titan fuel tank.
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2020, 04:51 PM   #42
Dee_Dub
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Jordan, Utah
Posts: 67
M.O.C. #24453
WOW - Thank you everyone for your input! I have put the trailer to bed for the season (my furnace quit working - another topic) and will attack the black tank in the spring. I will then be able to tell you where the "POP" occurred. Either the top of the tank failed or it failed at the outlet pipe that may have been improperly sealed. When I find out, I will let all of you know. Happy Travels
__________________
Dave & Marylee
2012 Moutaineer 324RLQ, 2016 Ram 3500 Laramie Megacab 4WD, Anderson Hitch, FTC40 Fuelbox, TruXport Tonneau Cover, DISH Tailgater, TST TPMS, Furrion camera system
Dee_Dub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 07:29 PM   #43
Dee_Dub
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Jordan, Utah
Posts: 67
M.O.C. #24453
I finally got around to dropping the tank! What a mess. It turns out that the tank failed in two places. #1 - below the flange ad #2 - the top plate split. The damage appears to be too extensive. I hope to find a one piece constructed take to replace this cheap tank. Pictures attached:
Attached Images
     
__________________
Dave & Marylee
2012 Moutaineer 324RLQ, 2016 Ram 3500 Laramie Megacab 4WD, Anderson Hitch, FTC40 Fuelbox, TruXport Tonneau Cover, DISH Tailgater, TST TPMS, Furrion camera system
Dee_Dub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 07:44 PM   #44
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
Dee Dub, the tank failed because Keystone doesn't mount them according to the tank's manufacturer. Try to replace it with a roto molded tank. If not possible, make sure the tank hangers hug the new tank closely the full length on both sides. And, support the tank underneath.
__________________
2016 3160, Legacy, Sailuns, Splendide 2100 xc vented, 1 1/2" axle lift blocks, disk brakes. 2014 Ram 3500 SRW SWB 4X4 6.7 Aisin Mega Cab, EBC slotted disks and brakes, Titan fuel tank.
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 08:11 PM   #45
MARK A
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: STAYTON
Posts: 1,118
M.O.C. #18157
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfb View Post
LEGACY MEANS YOU GET A REAR CAP, HIGH GLOSS GELCOAT FOR ANOTHER 6000! I do notice when selling the legacy nada or the dealers dont add even tho we paid for it!.. we get no better materials or construction and we get no add when trading or selling..

Not that it matters really but you missed a few things.

The Legacy pkg

1) Rear fiberglass cap
2) Solid hardwood cabinet faceframes instead of vinyl covered poplar.
3) heated bathroom floor
4) gel coat
5) LRE 4100 suspension
6) Some extra window blind locations

And I think I'm missing a couple.

I feel like it's a worthwhile upgrade.


Mark
MARK A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 10:27 PM   #46
Dee_Dub
Seasoned Camper
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: South Jordan, Utah
Posts: 67
M.O.C. #24453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Man View Post
Dee Dub, the tank failed because Keystone doesn't mount them according to the tank's manufacturer. Try to replace it with a roto molded tank. If not possible, make sure the tank hangers hug the new tank closely the full length on both sides. And, support the tank underneath.
Thanks Montana Man. I hope some one on this site can recommend a manufacturer for a roto molded tank.

I found this site: https://www.icondirect.com/holding-t...drain-ht543ed/

but I don't know if it is a roto molded tank. Any Opinions?
__________________
Dave & Marylee
2012 Moutaineer 324RLQ, 2016 Ram 3500 Laramie Megacab 4WD, Anderson Hitch, FTC40 Fuelbox, TruXport Tonneau Cover, DISH Tailgater, TST TPMS, Furrion camera system
Dee_Dub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 10:56 PM   #47
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
This tank appears not to be roto molded. The ones I've seen have a tall flange around the perimeter. Not thin where the top and bottom sections of the tank are glued/bonded together. As in where yours split apart.

A rotomolded tank may require modifying the hangars by which the tanks rest. You'll know when you see one and how your trailer is built. The original two piece tank can still be satisfactory if supported on the bottom as well. Some members have posted pics of their fine work.
__________________
2016 3160, Legacy, Sailuns, Splendide 2100 xc vented, 1 1/2" axle lift blocks, disk brakes. 2014 Ram 3500 SRW SWB 4X4 6.7 Aisin Mega Cab, EBC slotted disks and brakes, Titan fuel tank.
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2021, 06:56 AM   #48
rames14
Montana Master
 
rames14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Livermore
Posts: 5,135
M.O.C. #1920
If I remember correctly, it was around 2015 that Montana went to Rotomolded tanks. I am not sure why some have issues and some don’t. We have had Montana’s since 2004 and have driven places that I never thought we should take a fifth wheel. Others have had multiple tank failures. The last time we asked on tour at Montana, they were not backward compatible.
__________________
Ron and Terrie Ames - MOC #1920/KF0NTA
2021Montana 3230CK Super Solar Legacy Package
2021 Ram 3500 Laramie Longhorn, BIM Charging
4x4, SRW, LB, Crew Cab, Pullrite 3900 Hitch
rames14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2021, 09:32 AM   #49
Rondo
Site Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Omaha
Posts: 6,749
M.O.C. #7560
ames14 has it correct. The tanks are NOT compatible with each other. I've talked to both Keystone and the manufacturers of both tanks and they cannot to exchanged. The newer molded tank will not fit where the tanks of two part construction are on the older units. Montana Man is correct in that the tank you found Dave is the two part tank (pretty sneaky of them to put the tank upside down in their photo) and it is as they said chemically welded as those in the 2014 and before units are. I've blown several tanks and the main reason most blow or separate is because they have been overfilled OR we have tried to drive down the road with them partway full. The sloshing and splashing or movement within the tank breaks the weld and age has a lot to do with it also. About the only thing those of us can do that have a 2014 unit or older is install some added support under the tanks and also use some foam insulation between the extra support and the tank so it does not rub through the tank. There are numerous posts here on the Forum showing pictures of how some have added this support and foam and if you go into the Search Engine you can find the posts and pictures. DAVE, I'll say one thing for you, you have more guts than I do when it came to removing that black tank. Good luck and safe travels and camping!
Rondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2021, 05:03 PM   #50
Rstrnt
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maywood
Posts: 1
M.O.C. #26547
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeje View Post
I agree the tanks need to be supported from underneath. I've already done that to my three tanks
However if one continues to overfill it or travel with more than a couple few gallons in it you will sooner or later be replacing that tank

How did you support your tanks? I am installing a new black tank and am looking for support ideas. Strap? Angle iron? wood?
Rstrnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2021, 07:03 PM   #51
Carl n Susan
Site Team
 
Carl n Susan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Carmichael - CA
Posts: 7,323
M.O.C. #4831
To start, Search for "black tank support' to find previous Posts. Here are a couple that may help.
https://www.montanaowners.com/forums...ad.php?t=80415
https://www.montanaowners.com/forums...ad.php?t=57234
__________________
Carl (n Susan)
There is more to life than fuel mileage.
2012 Montana 3700RL Big Sky Package towed by a 2015 Ford F350 6.7L PSD 4WD CC LWB

Carl n Susan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2021, 07:24 PM   #52
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
I would debate the idea that these tanks failed because they were overfilled. What is overfilled? 1/2? 3/4? While parked, or driving? Has Keystone ever put to print what constitutes overfilling? Has a dealer ever said don't fill the tanks? If they advertise a tank capacity of X amount, do they ever say only fill it to X amount? Is a tank's capacity how many gallons it can hold, or an amount that you should not exceed?

I have personally witnessed a tank failure at a dealership that just replaced that very tank. We tested it in front of them and failure occurred prior to reaching full. Two piece tanks fail because they are not installed according the (tank) manufacturers recommendations. Which in part includes support on the bottom. Keystone elected to ignore that detail and we are left to fix the problem.
__________________
2016 3160, Legacy, Sailuns, Splendide 2100 xc vented, 1 1/2" axle lift blocks, disk brakes. 2014 Ram 3500 SRW SWB 4X4 6.7 Aisin Mega Cab, EBC slotted disks and brakes, Titan fuel tank.
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2021, 09:05 PM   #53
twindman
Montana Master
 
twindman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mesa az
Posts: 2,925
M.O.C. #5651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Man View Post
I would debate the idea that these tanks failed because they were overfilled. What is overfilled? 1/2? 3/4? While parked, or driving? Has Keystone ever put to print what constitutes overfilling? Has a dealer ever said don't fill the tanks? If they advertise a tank capacity of X manufacturers recommendations. Which in part includes support on the bottom. Keystone elected to ignore that detail and we are left to fix the problem.
I left my flush hose running and filled it up completely (and more). I don't remember exactly, but soon after it was leaking.
__________________

Tom and Gail
2013 Mountaineer 362
2012 Silverado 2500
twindman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2021, 06:00 AM   #54
jimcol
Montana Master
 
jimcol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Posts: 2,702
M.O.C. #7992
Send a message via AIM to jimcol Send a message via MSN to jimcol
[QUOTE=twindman;1217285]I left my flush hose running and filled it up completely (and more). I don't remember exactly, but soon after it was leaking.[/QUOT

Tom has it right. Many documented tank failures over the years, on this forum, due to overfilling while flushing black tank. I made the same mistake. So overfilling doesn't mean 1/2? 3/4? full it means overfilling.
__________________
2006 3000RK
2009 Ram 2500
jimcol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2021, 06:03 AM   #55
psomers
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Northport
Posts: 624
M.O.C. #12724
I've never had a tank problem and never really examined it but I'm guessing the vent pipe and toilet are attached to the top of the tank with solid black pipe. As the tank fills the tank sags in the middle between the supports. It looks to me like the pipes should be cut and then joined with a short piece of rubber hose to allow for the up and down motion of the tank. Those that have been in the area of the tank would that not help?
__________________

Paul Northport,AL W4XH
2013 358 RLT Mountaineer
2008 Silverado Duramax
psomers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2021, 07:00 AM   #56
beeje
Montana Master
 
beeje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: westminster md
Posts: 2,318
M.O.C. #17894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rstrnt View Post
How did you support your tanks? I am installing a new black tank and am looking for support ideas. Strap? Angle iron? wood?
On our unit there are two U channels underneath the front tanks going from side to side. I pulled down the coroplast and remove the u channel towards the rear. Cut a 2 by and inserted it between the tank and the coroplast of the front you Channel. Screwed into the wood from underneath through the u channel to hold it in place. Then worked towards the back doing the same thing to the U Channel that I removed.
At least now it is supported in two places. And like I stated before I never travel with anything in the tanks and always empty them before their 3/4 full or so
beeje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2021, 07:07 AM   #57
beeje
Montana Master
 
beeje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: westminster md
Posts: 2,318
M.O.C. #17894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Man View Post
I would debate the idea that these tanks failed because they were overfilled. What is overfilled? 1/2? 3/4? While parked, or driving? Has Keystone ever put to print what constitutes overfilling? Has a dealer ever said don't fill the tanks? If they advertise a tank capacity of X amount, do they ever say only fill it to X amount? Is a tank's capacity how many gallons it can hold, or an amount that you should not exceed?

I have personally witnessed a tank failure at a dealership that just replaced that very tank. We tested it in front of them and failure occurred prior to reaching full. Two piece tanks fail because they are not installed according the (tank) manufacturers recommendations. Which in part includes support on the bottom. Keystone elected to ignore that detail and we are left to fix the problem.
Of course I have no way of proving my overfilled Theory.. but I can state that while my unit was apart I filled each tank by hand with 5 gallon buckets and witnessed how much they expand. Downward. Trust me when I say they expand more than you think.
Think filling one of those collapsible 5 gallon water containers. Water / liquids are a very powerful force. Now imagine cruising down the highway with 30 gallons in a tank. That water is sloshing back and forth with a lot of force. In my opinion enough to blow that take apart
beeje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2021, 07:11 AM   #58
beeje
Montana Master
 
beeje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: westminster md
Posts: 2,318
M.O.C. #17894
When I say overfilled that is exactly what I mean.. overfilled is not half full or 3/4 full. If the tank is 50 gallons to get to overfilled you have to put more in it than that making it swell Beyond its capacity. The pressure from doing so could contribute to why some of these tanks are blowing apart
beeje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2021, 07:32 AM   #59
Montana Man
Montana Master
 
Montana Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Carson City
Posts: 2,017
M.O.C. #21963
Beeje, with that added support you should have no problems. It should have come from the factory that way. Without support the tanks are failing prior to reaching capacity. Any properly installed tank will survive overfilling, the point of flowing out of it's vent. We often fill the fresh water tanks to overflowing. Ever fill a fuel tank to overflowing? We all drive vehicles with full tanks.
__________________
2016 3160, Legacy, Sailuns, Splendide 2100 xc vented, 1 1/2" axle lift blocks, disk brakes. 2014 Ram 3500 SRW SWB 4X4 6.7 Aisin Mega Cab, EBC slotted disks and brakes, Titan fuel tank.
Montana Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2021, 04:43 PM   #60
beeje
Montana Master
 
beeje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: westminster md
Posts: 2,318
M.O.C. #17894
Fuel tanks in your truck and or are a totally different animal. All that stuff is regulated checked double check triple checked Etc. Seems like the RV industry can do whatever the hell they want completely unchecked.
The thickness of a fuel tank in a car is way more than a waste tank in an RV.
Overfilled RV waste tank should come out a sink toilet or shower long before it comes out of a vent through the roof
beeje is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.