Freezing Up - Lessons Learned

[sreigle]

Some of you are aware we recently had some freezing problems. I've figured out I screwed up and that's what caused the problems. We went to bed at 11 degrees F with full water and all was well. In the morning, at 8 degrees, we had no water except we had cold water from our onboard tank at the bathroom vanity and the toilet. Also, our black tank was full and we could not dump it or any other tank. So we spent several days trekking to the park's showerhouse for potty breaks and showers. We didn't get above freezing for 5 days and not out of the teens for three of those. Lows were from 17 to 2 during that period.

As of noon Friday we have running water again. As of Saturday afternoon we can dump the gray tank but not the black and galley tanks.

I mentioned the mistakes were mine so thought I'd document them in hopes it will help someone else avoid similar problems.

1. When the temperature will be in hard freeze territory, keep all dump valves closed and make sure the sewer hose is fully drained. I left the gray tank open overnight that night and the dump pipes that hang below the belly froze up solid as did the sewer hose. Not realizing that, I opened the valve to drain the galley tank and was unable to drain it. However, it did fill the galley tank drain pipe that hangs under the rig. That pipe then froze solid.

2. Do not run an electric heater overnight in the living area if you intend to turn the furnace down overnight. I turned the furnace down from 68 to 60, left the electric heater in the living room on high, and closed the door to the upstairs area, where we run another electric heater. The temperature was 11 F when we went to bed. The electric heater kept the furnace shut down long enough to allow our water lines in the belly to freeze.

3. If you open the belly pan, be sure to button it back up. I insulated water lines from rear axle forward. I removed the pan bolts from the rear axle aft and then got sick. A couple of days later it had turned cold so I decided to forego insulating the lines back there, thinking the water heater and the heat taped low point drains in that area would keep those lines from freezing. But I forgot to button up the belly. It was hanging down just an inch or so in spots but the rear fender by the rear corner was hanging down and acted as a scoop to ram the considerable cold wind right into the belly. My bad.

A couple of days later we had a mobile service come out to see if he had anything to help. It turns out he didn't but he discovered the open rear belly. That's where we froze. He also said the furnace is pumping plenty of hot air right up against the black and gray tanks in the front and there's plenty heat in the rear. The access to the frozen pipe sections make it very difficult to get auxiliary heat in there. He felt running the furnace high and covering one or more vents to force more heat into the belly would eventuallyt thaw out the pipes. He was correct but it was another 24 hours before they thawed fully.

I reported in another thread our black tank was frozen. In reality, it was not. The dump pipe was frozen and that in itself would keep us from dumping that tank. However, when the dump pipe thawed we still could not dump the black. It was not frozen, it was clogged. A couple of hours of backflushing alternately through the black tank flush valve and through a hose connection on our dump cap, draining, reflushing, etc., finally freed it up. I can tell we do not yet have full capacity of the tank but can use it so long as we dump it every two or three days. We will do this until we head south in early January. At that time I will make sure the tank is at least half full of liquid and we will let it agitate on the road for that first day. That should dissolve the tissue and allow it to dump. What happened is I had dumped the tank on a Sunday morning. At noon that day I began a procedure in preparation for a colonscopy. The prep requires frequent trips to the bathroom, resulting in a lot of tissue going into the tank with very little liquid. The result is easy to figure. The tissue does dissolve when I do the shake test so agitation should finish clearing it out.

So had I not screwed up we likely would not have frozen up.

Hope this helps someone. I sure learned a few things.

[vickir]

To be exact, Honey ... we schlepped to the showerhouse/bathroom from Tuesday afternoon to Sunday afternoon ... with 12 inches of snow on the ground for a good deal of that time!!! Can we say Vicki was somewhat cranky?

[MIMF2]

Vicki, is cranky really the word?

By the way. When you folks get to Keystone (the new) Customer Service building, you ain't going to believe it! They are moving in this week. I and a couple of other "Lippertites" had the opportunity to see it a week or so ago. I think you will be even more convinced that Keystone is trying even harder to improve their customer service, if that is possible!

[Dave e Victoria]

Steve,
Mistake one- did not read weather forecast. Solution - Go south young man, go south! North is for summer. South is for winter.
Dave
PS: Glad we have some adventureous souls out there exploring this territory.

[jrgwdenner]

Oh, but, Dave, the calling of grandchildren is stronger than any desire to go south during the holidays.

Steve, thanks for being so open about sharing your dilemma. I'm sure we can all learn from your experience.

Vicki, do I detect a tone of slight bitterness, eh? My mother used to walk three miles to school, uphill, in snow 30" deep, in her barefeet...... Builds character, don't ya think?

Seriously, we sorry for your difficulties.

[BillyRay]

lessons learned the hard way, but atleast no damage!

[ken]

Steve
That is why I left Kansas. I thought you learned your lesson last year. A few years back, we were back in Kansas in Oct and frozeup at the water inlet. When it gets too cold here in Virginia, we head for Florida and the kids can come and visit us..........We go back to kansas in the Fall.

[Parrothead]

Steve and Vicki, sorry to hear about your freeze. I can't imagine living in my Monty in the winter back east. I lived in a mobile home in Upstate New York and that was bad enough. But I know why you are there and Christmas without family can be very difficult. This is the first Christmas our youngest daughter will not be with us and it is hard. All the rest will be here Christmas day. We wish you a Merry Christmas and an unfrozen one.
Happy trails.....................

[dsprik]

OK. What I got out of that was: Don't have a colonoscopy if you are living in your Montana during an extended cold snap. What... wasn't that what everyone learned from Steve and Vicki's experience??? Am I the only one that picked up on that? Seemed obvious to me...

Thanks, Steve! I don't care what everyone else thinks... I'm writing this one down. VERY important lesson...

[H. John Kohl]

Steve,
Good lesson and advise for those tempting the freezing temperatures. I suggest the Calgon addition to the black tank. It has helped others make the sides of the tank slippery and helps clean it all the way. Good luck and tow safe.

[dannyl]

Sorry about the freezing problem.
I had a colonoscopy last week so I can sympathize with you about the prep. The scope was okay but they removed a couple of polps and I was sore for a week.
I just got my unit back from the dealer. My back tank would not dump because of the valve not opening. While there I had a back-flush installed.

[Sweetfire]

H.J.K.

I'm a newby. Run that Calgon thing by me please. How much? How often?

[Glenn and Lorraine]

Here's copy from a thread I found on another forum...

quote:Calgon Water Softener
This stuff is amazing and it works. Buy a couple of boxes of powdered water softener at the grocery store. You'll find it located with or near the laundry detergent products. I prefer Calgon Water Softener because it dissolves quickly in water. Cheaper water softeners work just as well but dissolve more slowly. Dissolve two (2) cups of the water softener in a gallon of hot water. Then, pour the solution down the drain into the empty tank. Use two cups of softener for each waste water tank in your RV. The tank's drain valve should be closed otherwise the softened water will just drain out. Then use the tank(s) normally until it is full and drain it normally. Add a cup of laundry detergent to the black (commode) water tank at the same time you add water softener. This will help clean the tank. The gray water tanks should already contain soap through normal use.

The water softener makes the solid waste let go from the sides of the tanks. If you've ever taken a shower in softened water you know that after rinsing the soap from your body your skin will feel slick. That's because all the soap rinses away with soft water. Softened water also prevents soap scum from sticking in the tub. Get the connection? With softened water gunk washes away instead of sticking. The same thing applies to your RV's waste water tanks.

I personally don't use it. I have a regular routine for dumping and flushing and have not looked at the tank level gauges (lights) in ages.

[Lstierw]

thanks for the quote about Calgon. We will try it...

quote:Originally posted by Glenn and Lorraine

Here's copy from a thread I found on another forum...

I personally don't use it. I have a regular routine for dumping and flushing and have not looked at the tank level gauges (lights) in ages.

[drifus]

Steve, you could have called, I would have been more than happy to help you out. I guess I have to thank partially my location as I am blocked from some winds and having a newer unit (from what I have read) helps too.

[Dancyn]

Goodness, Steve......but Vicki sounds a tad bitter. I find that hard to believe! Okay, you said you would never shovel snow again, and I said I would never buy another set of studded tires. How quickly we have to eat those words!

We couldn't figure out why the kitchen sink and hot water line froze, until I read here on the forum about the drain lines freezing. Made perfect sense. Checked them, and both were frozen solid. We have heat lamps set up and will wrap them with insulation when they are thawed out. Thanks to the forum for once again showing me the simple solution!

[vickir]

Not bitter ... I was actually quite stoic throughout the seemingly never-ending ordeal. Glad you found assistance with your problem.

Have I mentioned how nice it is to see you back on the forum?

[Gypsy]

Hey, you two - I thought you learned your lesson about RVing in freezing temps last year. Like everyone asked me when I stayed too long in New Hampshire my first autumn full- timing, "Remember, your home is on wheels. Point 'em South and roll!"

[Hemlockusa]

HI STEVE SO SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT ALL YOUR TROUBLE, IN YOUR DISCRIPTION YOU DID GET SICK A FEW DAYS, I DON'T WANT TO START ANYTHING BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE IF YOUR DW VICKI WOULD HAVE GOT HER HAIR DRYER AND A EXTENTION CORD OUT AND CRAWLED UNDER THE MONTANA AND HIT THE PIPES ;WITH THE HAIR DRYER. THAT WAY WHEN YOU FELT BETTER YOU COULD HAVE JUST LAID BACK AND WATCHED TV....OK I'AM OUT OF HERE!!!!!! LATER JOHN H (aka hemlockusa)

[Wordsmith]

Steve and Vicki, You really do need to head south again! Thanks for sharing your adventures and your honesty. We all can learn from your mistakes, especially if Marsha and I ever find ourselves in the north Georgia mountains or North Carolina in the winter and get caught by a cold snap.

This prompts a question from a debate Marsha and I had last month when we were out on our last trip of the year. At what temperature should we disconnect the city water supply? It dipped just below freezing the first night, and Marsha wanted me to disconnect, which I did, but I was curious about some other experiences. I have not camped in the winter since I was a boy and, well, I wasn't awfully concerned about such then.