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Old 07-03-2008, 03:14 PM   #1
Dean A Van Peursem
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Black Tank inspection and removal???

I've posted this question on another thread but didn't get any responses so I'm trying a new thread to see if I can make some progress. The Montana in question here is a late 2006 3400RL which has developed a serious and major leak. This may have been here for some time, maybe since new, since it only leaks when the tank is near full or full. We always empty the tank and put just a couple of gallons in the tank while traveling. We have never dry camped for an extended period of time or had to travel with a near full or full tank to get to a dump station.

However, a few weeks ago I did a more than thorough job of flushing the black tank. I do that by closing the black tank drain valve and run the flushing system until the tank nearly fills up and drain it again a few times. The next morning I had black tank water dripping under the belly pan at the exit hole of the Washer/Dryer sewer pipe. We were going to be gone for the day so I put a 5 gallon bucket under it. By the time we returned the 5 gallon bucket was almost full. But had quit dripping. Upon returning home after tthis trip I pulled the belly pan on the right side of the RV to see if the flushing line was leaking. It wasn't. Only when I filled the black tank nearly full did it start leaking and the leak was huge draining down the side of the tank, in gushes, along side the exit drain pipe of the tank. It's coming from the top or near the top of the tank near there.

But I can't see where or much of anything but running water when viewing from the right side. So I tried to remove some of the belly pan on the left side to get to that area of the Black Tank. First to find out where the tank leak really is and second to try to find the tag on the tank to identify which one I have. But... I haven't figured out how to get the belly pan off enough to get in there. There are too many obstructions in the way such as the propane pipe, drain pipe, etc.

So I'm asking here: What are the steps necessary to get enough of the belly pan off so that I can find out what my tank problem is and if necessary replace the darn thing? Or is this something that a dealer can only do. I'm fairly handy, have the tools and can do this type of stuff but I'm stuck at the moment. I don't want to start removing pipes or dismantling sewer pipes if there is a easier way to do this. So... any help from any Montana owner would be appreciated who has done this or has watched it done would be sincerely appreciated. Worst case I would at least like to see what the problem really is and how big a problem I really have before I take it into a dealer. No, I do not have extended warranty and even with this probably expensive dealer repair I probably will still be ahead.

I just need some help to get past my initial inspection road blocks. I suspect I'll be able to figure it out if I can get to it. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 07-03-2008, 03:55 PM   #2
HamRad
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Dean,

At least one of our MOCers has changed out one or more of the tanks. It can be done. It all depends on how handy one is and how much time you have. It is very expensive to have a dealer do the job. If you can do it yourself you will save a lot of labor $$$$. It is the kind of thing I might have tackled in my younger more healthy days but there is no way I could even think about it now. I would have to have someone else do it.

I'm sure someone who has some actual experience will step forward soon.

Good luck.

Dennis
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Old 07-04-2008, 12:50 AM   #3
Ozz
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Well, as far as dropping the Black cover, you just have to cut the Washer drain line, don't worry, a coupling will repair it later on. I loosened the propane line and slid the underbelly off. There was one place I had to cut an access hole further back to access a tank, but that was by the fresh water tank.
As Dennis stated, there are at least two who did the job their-selves, good luck on this job.
Be very careful guessing on how full the tank is when using the flush system, that will burst a tank quickly if left on too long.
Ozz
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Old 07-04-2008, 03:03 AM   #4
richfaa
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Dean..We have the same 3400 camper..and we had the very same problem.. To drop the underbelly to find were the leak was and to find the identifying numbers for the black tank we had to cut slots in the underbelly to remove the underbelly panel and not cut the pipes. Not a big deal and a easy fix.Our tank was split on the camper door side at the very top where the lip of the tank sits on the angle bar that holds the tank in. There is a tag on the tank that will give the part number and tank dimensions..also a yellow marking that will tell if it is a right or left drain.. You must have that information correct. Once you cut the slots you can get the under belly down..We removed the front two panels..but not without a struggle.. Replace the tank your self..you could if you are handy,are adapt at working on your back, under a camper, and of course the cost to repair is a driving factor. You will need to cut the drain pipes off..all can be purchased at Home depot. Cost of the tank , from the vendor was, 245.00..shipping and fuel surcharge would be 132.00. Cost of plumbing was about 30.00.. The front angle support is held in place with 4 bolts..2 on each side..reemove them and you have a black tank on your chest. You will need wife or a very good friend to help you get it back up there. I watched a professional do it.. Could Helen and I have done it....Sure She is very handy. We had the extended Warranty so we hauled it to the dealer.

"travel star the tank vendors 574-533-0447 They are in Goshen. I suggest talking to them to make sure you get the proper tank. The tank cost 245.00. They said shipping was 132.00 (then) Note that the dealer ordered through Keystone and there was NO shipping charge, We got the tank in less that 2 weeeks. Cost of repair was just short of 800.00..(covered by my Extended service contract)"

5 hours labor was authorized and it took every min of it For one person to do it.
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Old 07-04-2008, 09:25 AM   #5
Exnavydiver
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One point that I might add is that when they replaced our tank in Savannah one of the techs broke his arm when the old tank came loose and pinned it between the tank and frame. We found out later that there was a lot of solid stuff inside that added a hundred lbs or so to the tank. If you plan on doing it yourself get at least two of the heavy rubber flex couplings to reconnect the large pipes. Also the techs did a plastic weld on where the pipes entered the tank. I didn't get to watch this so I am not sure how it was done but have an idea.
Good Luck... Dave and Betsy
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:27 AM   #6
MacDR50
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A few suggestions that might be pratical or maybe not. You might also consider using a few jacks stands with 2x4's spread between them to keep the tank from dropping while you are underneath. A motorcycle jack might be useful for lowering the old tank and raising the new if you have access to one. Good luck and be safe.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:26 AM   #7
richfaa
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The empty tank is not heavy at all.It is ABS material.It is just large and hard to handle.It is a chore and the above suggestions or a good helper would make it easier. Flush that old tank out....good....remember what is in it..
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Old 07-04-2008, 02:24 PM   #8
Ozz
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Bobby, or scductman did his himself, contact him, a great guy and always there to help.
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:17 AM   #9
tgrucelski
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Thought I'd add my .02 cents worth to this. I also have a 3400RL ('08 built August last year and had a problem with the black tank leaking when full to the point of the toilet burping.

After the selling dealer told me I shouldn't be letting the tank get that full I wrote a rather lengthy email to customer service - my contention was that you ought to be able to fill any one of the service tanks to the point of water standing in the sinks, tub or toilet without so much as a drip (as we all know the gauges aren't 100% functional and especially for the black tank so how are you supposed to know when they are truly full?) This was not the case with my black tank, I filled it up to the point of seeing water in the toilet pipe and sure enough 5 minutes later I was getting leaking out from between the bellypan and skirt on the road side. I suspected it had to be one of the fittings and it turned out to be the one for the vent pipe. It wasn't properly glued in to the tank top or perhaps no glue at all and simply dropped into the tank as I read somewhere else here if I'm not mistaken.

You might try taking off the plastic trim piece where the vent pipe goes through the basement floor (the tank top is right underneath this) to see that it is properly sealed.
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:36 AM   #10
richfaa
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"You might try taking off the plastic trim piece where the vent pipe goes through the basement floor (the tank top is right underneath this) to see that it is properly sealed." Note on this.. The OEM seal in my 06 3400 was the improper seal or as the service guy who replaced my tank said... Of very low quality. I was actually also leaking there also but we never noticed that as we never let it fill to the top.
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:06 AM   #11
Dean A Van Peursem
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Excellent, I will follow up on this suggestion. Haven't done that but did hallucinate a bit about hoping it would be something less traumatic than a cracked or broken tank. The vent pipe had crossed my mind as something that needed to be checked but hadn't got off my duff to check it. Now I have some motivation to do so. Does the vent pipe exit/enter on top anywhere near the same area as the sewer drain outlet pipe does at the bottom? I'm seeing water run heavily from somewhere near the top of the tank down past the piping for the outlet drain? What does a good vs vent pipe seal look like? Is it supposed to be cemented in or an
O" ring type seal or threaded fitting or ..........?

However, does this vent pipe enter the tank right at the top surface of the tank or is there an indentation in the tank to make the seal lower than the top of the tank? So that it would start leaking before the tank was full? I don't think I have ever filled the black tank 100% full, but I suppose there is a possibility I have. Or is that end (Drivers side) lower than the other end where the flushing pipe enters (passenger side)? Man, it would be a real repair cost saver if my problem is only a vent pipe seal! Seems like that might be able to be fixed w/o removing the tank. I hope!

Have the whole family over for the weekend so won't get to this until early next week. Thanks a bunch. I've got my fingers crossed! :-)

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Old 07-05-2008, 09:31 AM   #12
SlickWillie
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Dean, we have a different unit, but have had issues with black tank leakage when the tank is "over" filled. We stayed at our home this past summer, and stayed in the fiver. I would fill the black tank to the highest point possible because we had to go to a state park to dump. My service manager at the dealer told me that the vent merely fits in a rubber boot. IIRC, Rich's ordeal may have proven this statement incorrect. Or, perhaps it is like everything else on these units, some are, some aren't. So, there may be hope.

Just one word of caution. Try to get the fifth wheel leaning toward the drain side and flush good. The way those tanks are designed, they're not gonna empty good sitting level. I dumped ours at the state park, then came home, parked on the side of the hill a ways from the house, and I bet it still had five gallons of crap in it. Luckily, we have several acres and the house is on the back.
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:41 AM   #13
Exnavydiver
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I had the opportunity to look at my old tank and all three pipes, the toilet pipe, the vent, and the dump were all plastic welded, not glues or in a rubber boot. Not sure if all of them are that way but mine came off the line on Oct 16th 07... Dave and Betsy
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:33 AM   #14
Dean A Van Peursem
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Ok, folks where is the vent pipe for the Black Tank on a late 2006 3400RL? I currently see only two vertical pipes going into or out of the black tank. Both next to each other on the right side toward the rear of the garage. One is obviously the toilet drain and the other is just a straight black pipe, maybe 2 to 2 1/2" diameter heading up through the ceiling of the garage but then I don't know where it goes or connects to from there. There are two pipe vents on the roof. One approximately over the front closet by the door quite a bit to the rear of this straight pipe and another above the garage but quite a bit forward of this straight pipe. If this straight black pipe is the vent, the vent piping has to do a couple right angle turns to get to either one of the roof vents. And if this is the vent pipe for the black tank it is at the opposite end of where the black tank is leaking. I don't see any other vertical pipe coming out of the black tank anywhere else, especially at the other end of the tank where it is leaking. I haven't yet removed the white plastic ring around this pipe which is stapled to the garage floor/carpet but I can see some of the cement bonding of whatever it connects to and it looks good and I've never had a leak in this area that I am aware of. If this pipe connection is leaking there would have to be a channel or depression across the top of the black tank to direct the water to the other end of the black tank diagonally to cause the water leak I'm seeing.

Unfortunately, I had hoped the vent pipe was at the other end of the black tank. It isn't. Unless I have totally misunderstood the piping it is hard for me to beleive that the vent pipe is leaking. I just don't see any other piping at the other end of the black tank area that could even be remotely called a vent pipe. Am I missing something?
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Old 07-06-2008, 11:30 AM   #15
richfaa
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That smaller pipe IS the vent pipe..I have no idea how it gets to the roof and I probably do not want to know. That small pipe will have to be replaced as it is welded into the black tank.The larger pipe was leaking right under the floor level. There is no way you can see that leak unless the pipe is removed. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I think you are going to have to hack that tank out of there and replace and re plumb it and only then will you be able to see ALL the leaks. All our pipes were welded in and as I recall your 3400 is only a month or two away from mine. Sometimes I suspect that 10 3400 made on the same day would not be plumbed the same???
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