Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Montana Owners Club - Keystone Montana 5th Wheel Forum > GENERAL DISCUSSIONS > Tow Vehicles & Towing
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-08-2009, 04:59 PM   #41
Dean A Van Peursem
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Snohomish
Posts: 579
M.O.C. #5583
akf15e,

I have a similar view and similar F250/F350 questions relative to my 2003 F250 Montana 3400RL combination. Yes, I'm probably running slightly over on GCWR and GVWR but I'm below on each door sticker GAWR by quite a bit. Front and rear. Now that doesn't quite make sense to me. Now that may mean I don't have enough power with a 3.73 Rear End Ratio vs a 4.10 or higher and if I did maybe the GCWR & GVWR would be higher but I don't recall Fords 2003 literature stating that. The F250 and F350 have the same power train. So if that doesn't compute then the difference must be in the way the frame is made, the brakes or the springs on the rear. I'm presently not aware that the brakes or the frame or the axle is different on the SRW 2003 F250 vs F350 but I am aware of the spring difference. I'm trying to find my 2003 F250/F350 sales literature which I saved but cannot find right now. Maybe there is a difference but I sure don't remember it. So only to improve the 1" or 2" of rear sag of the 2003 F250 loaded with the 2006 3400RL I've added airbags which leveled things out just fine. I am currently trying to fix the last iritant and that is the "Bobbing" that I get very occasionally. Today I received and installed Torklift Stable Load Overload Spring Pads to reduce the gap that exists for the overload spring leaf to engage under heavy load. I suspect this will solve (at worst reduce) this final minor irritant.

So as long as I feel I am a safely loaded on the road, which I currently beleive, I don't see an adequate reason and just cannot justify spending the additional over $20,000 to buy a new Ford truck that has Diesel engines I don't like. I just haven't seen good enough arguments that just because the door sticker defines whether I am safe or not, to take that as the total gospel. IMHO, after almost 90,000 miles on this truck, with many of those miles pulling a heavy equipment trailer cross country and over 12,000 miles towing the 2006 3400RL, the primary safety issue for me is the "nut" behind the wheel. I presently worry more about the "nut" in the drivers seat and the other "nuts" on the road than the truck! :-) I do know my driving habits have improved considerably since owning the 3400RL. I am acutely aware that I'm driving an over 20,000 lb bullet that if not handled correctly can do allot of damage. It is my view that my defensive driving skills have improved significantly since the purchase of the 3400RL .

If I were buying a new truck today, I wouldn't buy anything but a F350 SRW if that kept me under all the ratings or a F350 Dually if I needed to get some extra ratings breathing space. But that just isn't in the cards right now.
 
Dean A Van Peursem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2009, 03:19 AM   #42
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
I don't know what the legal ramifications might be and I sure don't want to be the person to find out .I figure if I stay withing the numbers I will be less likely to find out.Vehicles are built according to standards mandated by this http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...vss/index.html that sticker is on our doors because the Federal Government mandates that it be there. The information on it applies to that particular vehicle and that it complies with the standards. I think the potential buyer should be aware of and understand what those numbers mean so they can make the purchase that best meets their needs. Bigger truck, smaller camper, whatever.

I don't know were anyone got the notion that I was implying that one should sell their truck and buy a bigger one. The OP had no truck and he was looking for information to help him make a decision in purchasing one.



richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2009, 07:34 PM   #43
Dmaxdon
Established Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 29
M.O.C. #8452
I have always found it amusing how people choose to use the ratings that they can meet and I find it so ludicrous how so many of the people that are comfortable being over the GVWR of their tow vehicle are so careful not to be over their Montana's GVWR
There is no difference, overload your Montana, overload your TV, it is the same thing.
Yes the axle ratings always add up to more than the GVWR. This is your safety margin. The company that builds the vehicle and the law says you must go by the GVWR.
There is no way to legally change your vehicle's GVWR. Go ahead and do what you are comfortable with.........but please, please don't try and convince the rest of us that this is a responsible decision.
Dmaxdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2009, 08:57 PM   #44
Dean A Van Peursem
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Snohomish
Posts: 579
M.O.C. #5583
Dmaxdon,

Not trying to convince anyone, in fact you will notice that I always recommend having some room in the ratings. But also this is subject to some common sense. I don't recommend anyone doing this but... If the ONLY difference, between two trucks both with the same axle ratings and one having a 500 lb higher GVWR and Cargo Capacity, is the rear overload spring and that same overload spring is put on the truck with the lower GVWR, the lower rated truck has a more capacity than what it started with even though the GVWR on the door sticker didn't change. Again I don't recommend this to anyone. I think we each have to decide what is a responsible decision based on many parameters including driving habits. However, I consider this one heck of a more responsible decision than not improving the weight carrying capacity. For example: IMHO, driving a 22,000 lb plus RV/truck combination at 75 miles an hour, in traffic, is irresponsible at any GVWR. There is allot more to safety than just being under the GVWR. So responsible decisions are a bit more complex than just following one single sticker on the door frame of the truck. Life isn't quite this simple or black and white.

BTW: I have read that in certain areas/states you CAN change the weight rating on the pickup truck legally. I don't know the details. I do know that in the state of WA you can license a big truck for weights that exceed the frame specifications. That isn't right either. The weight limitation on big trucks in the state of WA is largely determined by how many tread inches of tire you have on the road with an additional controlling maximum weight limitation per axle defined by 2 vs 4 tires per axle. I respect your recommendation to stay within the GVWR's. However, please also respect that there may be other views/decisions on this subject that are not irresponsible.
Dean A Van Peursem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2009, 09:11 PM   #45
Art-n-Marge
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
Send a message via MSN to Art-n-Marge Send a message via Yahoo to Art-n-Marge
I have learned a whole lot through this post. Here's the summary of what is fact:

Tow Vehicle (TV) considerations:
#1. NEVER exceed the GVWR with cargo, passengers and trailer hitched up, PERIOD.
#2. The GAWR are the MAXIMUMS for each axle but their combined totals must meet #1.
#3. Make sure all tires on your truck exceed #2 and #1.

Trailer considerations:
#1. NEVER exceed the GVWR, PERIOD.
#2. If you can, know the GAWR MAXIMUMS for each axle but the total must be LESS than #1.
#3. Know the weight at the hitch pin (see below)
#3. Make sure all tires on your trailer exceed #2 and #1 minus the pin weight.

Don't use paper estimates of what your weights are or try and figure things out in your head. Take the time and effort to take your rig to the scales with all the stuff you take on a trip (wife, kids, pets, after market accessories) and weigh the following:

With the trailer unhitched:
a.) Truck Front wheels (FRONT GAWR)
b.) Truck Front and Rear wheels (GVWR)
c.) Truck Rear wheels (REAR GAWR)
Hitch up your 5er
d.) Truck Front and Rear Wheels (GVWR + Pin Weight)
e.) Truck All Wheels and Trailer Front Wheels (GVWR + Pin Weight + Trailer FRONT GAWR)
f.) Truck All Wheels and Trailer All Wheels (GVWR + Pin Weight + Trailer FRONT GAWR + Trailer REAR GAWR) aka CGWR Combined Gross Weight Rating)

It cost me $10 at a moving company down the street where I live because I didn't need a printout of each weight. The lady just wrote down each weight on a piece of paper. NOW, knowing these numbers, and doing some calculations, you can now evaluate how safe you are bounding down the road with your 10 tons of household.

From this information I found the only problem I had to solve was the pin weight. I was too loaded in the front of the trailer and had too much stuff in the truck bed but had a lot of weight to gain over the trailers' wheels. Before I travel I now move most of the truck bed and garage items into the trailer to redistribute the pin weight and meet the GVWR and leaving many things at home. Problem solved. Sure it adds time to set up and break down but at least I can say I am safe when I am bounding down the road and not an accident waiting to happen just because I haven't had any problems, yet. Remember only when the accident happens and you get weighed, if you exceed your ratings you are not only liable, you are possibly considered neglectful!

Btw - I have a pretty conservative driving style. I don't ever exceed 65 MPH because the trailer tires are only rated up to that.

Okay Dmaxdon, do I have this straight now, once and for all? I have also learned if I ever drive in Canada with my rig I will need a sticker on my license that I am allowed to drive with my CGWR.

Whew! I need a bigger truck so I can take more toys. Or, change the springs (the ONLY difference between SWR F-350 and an F-250) and get recertified for a new pillar sticker.

It's only money, but what's the price for safety?
Art-n-Marge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2009, 09:37 PM   #46
Dean A Van Peursem
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Snohomish
Posts: 579
M.O.C. #5583
Art,

Excellent summary. Here in the state of WA and a few other states we have been in, the DOT scales, along the Interstate, are left open and on even if they are unmanned. I weigh my whole setup several times a year at these scales to make sure something hasn't changed from normal expectations. Total weight of the combined unit, each axle weight, loaded and unloaded, including the pin weight unhooked for the truck. In our experience so far the weights haven't changed significantly but all have gotten slightly heavier at times as we seem to gather more junk. We police the RV and truck occasionally to get rid of gained clutter. I"m very conscious of our weight situation. Never have gotten anywhere close to the GVWR on the RV due to our diligence. Have removed one recliner, one oak chair and the original analog TV to create more openness and to reduce RV weight. Added back in a LCD HDTV which is over 100 lbs less than the old analog TV. Weight savings were significant. Never travel with any fluids in the tanks other than 5 gallons or so each in the Fresh Water and Black Tanks. None in the galley or grey tanks. Would I prefer to have a bigger truck, absolutely. Not in the cards right now. A very difficult/troublesome compromise.
Dean A Van Peursem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2009, 05:29 AM   #47
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
Actually you can change the certification rating on your truck. The procedure is stated in the Federal Motor vehicle safety standards and regulations. Of course you can change the capacities of the truck by adding springs, etc. I saw a F-250 that was a dually. The owner had replaced everything in the rear of the truck. Did it increase capacities, of course. Was it a F-350..no. Meeting the ratings and spec's of the truck should be a safety consideration to the individual and I believe that if the individual had a in depth knowledge of the ratings and why they are there ..they would buy a bigger truck or a smaller camper. For the Rv'er it is a legal question that the vast majority of us will never confront because there are no laws for Rv'ers as there are for the Commercial driver. Only if you should wind up in court in a at fault accident might the numbers come into play.

There are some folks who well know they are outside of the ratings and spec's but will continue to defend their position when asked the question by a person seeking knowledge.

I would rather voluntarily conform with the ratings and spec's rather than be forced to conform by Government regulations that will surely in time be imposed upon Rv'ers.

There are many considerations regarding safety As Dean points out ,All critical. When a person askes a question seeking knowledge our responsibility is to inform them where they can get the information they need or where they can see the documentation in suport of the information we provide. Not.... Lots of folks pull heavy with a 3/4 ton so it is OK. I pull heavy and never had a problem, The only difference is a set of springs.A poll on a forum is not documentation....it is information
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2009, 11:37 AM   #48
KathyandDave
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Shelburne
Posts: 688
M.O.C. #8693
Send a message via MSN to KathyandDave
Adding to Art(-n-Marge)'s nicely simplified comments, especially the important point that you must actually weigh the rig piece by piece. However, the pin weight has to be calculated from the other measurements, unless you stand the pin on the scale on a jack of some sort. The pin weight = the weight of the TV with the Monty sitting on it (with the Monty wheels off the scale) less the weight of the TV, or, if using an older scale that weighs one axle at a time, the pin weight = the weight of the TV's rear axle with the Monty sitting on it less the weight of the TV's rear axle alone. The Monty's weight = the pin weight plus the total for the Monty's axles (usually weighed together, anyway). The pin weight is important as a proportion of the Monty's total weight. It cannot be found by weighing the front jacks.
KathyandDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2009, 01:17 PM   #49
Sinterior
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Kamloops
Posts: 337
M.O.C. #9238
Art-n-Marge

Here in BC if your'e a resident and your trailer weighs more than 4600kg (10120lbs) you should get a license endorsment. IIRC out of province drivers are ok if they meet their home Province or State regulations. I believe several other provinces have similar regs.

Re the 4600kg weight, I have asked the licensing office more than once if it means the trailer GVW, the actaul weight of the trailer or just the axle weight NOT including pin weight...... I have yet to get a straight answer to that question.
I read an article in a Canadian RV magazine (I forget which one) where a Victoria BC traffic cop stated its the axle weight without the pin weight, however later issues said he was wrong.......go figure. This issue seems to be one of those where the author of the weight limit should be asked what the intent is. Good luck on that one!

Peter
Sinterior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2009, 08:55 PM   #50
Dmaxdon
Established Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 29
M.O.C. #8452
Peter, when I got my heavy trailer endorsement, the tester told me if the actual tow weight is over 10000 pounds, you need the endorsement. The confusion is caused by people trying to convince themselves they don't need the endorsement.
Both the written test and the road test are not hard to pass if you read the rules and know how to pull a trailer
You can take courses to help you. I wanted to take a course but did not have the time and I passed both tests fairly well.
The tester told me an 8000 pound trailer with over 2000 pounds of cargo would require the endorsement in BC.
Pin weight or hitch weight doesn't subtract from this weight. My tester seemed to know his stuff. I asked him if I would have showed up with a 3/4 Ton truck if he would have passed me. He said he did the testing, not the policing. They have people with portable scales that do random testing. I have only seen this twice and both times were in Northern BC while I was traveling.
Funny thing is that gas`powered Class A motorhomes do not need a special licence. Diesel powered Class A moorhomes need an air brake endorsement which I have to get fairly soon.
Dmaxdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2009, 08:58 PM   #51
Art-n-Marge
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
Send a message via MSN to Art-n-Marge Send a message via Yahoo to Art-n-Marge
Yup, richfaa I was aware of the recerts for a truck when increasing its capacity and for cost reasons I might look into upgrumping my F-250 into an F-350 after verifying ALL rear components are the same and confirm that only the springs are different like I investigated 2, 3 and 4 years ago (I might need to go with the 4:10 differential too). It will probably cost the $4,000 price difference or a little more now, but for my stinginess I went with the F-250 because I didn't think the extra 1000 or so pounds was worth $4000 difference for a comparably equipped trucks. But 1000 lbs is all I need to stay safe and still carry all the stuff I want and where in the rig I want.

You are right on, Dave (KathyandDave) on the pin weight. I should have actually displayed how the calculations work for the tables to prevent assumptions. Quite honestly it is very difficult to measure the pin weight any other way than described, because you can't do it the landing gear because they are too far back and they aren't at the pin anyway and would give an inaccurate reading. And it's not like you can disconnect the truck, put a hitch tripod at the pin, then raise the landing gear becuase the tripod cannot support the weight. Maybe I'll add the "how to calculate" your pertinent weight to obtain the important numbers.

So Sinterior, do you think ALL the U.S. RV Rig drivers that travel through Canada on their way to Alaska actually get checked for a sticker? They already check a lot of other things but I have never driven anything substantial through there. Some of you might already know the answer through experience.

In Summary, congratulations to Kabrys on making the right decision, thanks to this membership. I wished I knew about the MOC when DW and I finally decided on purchasing our 3500RL which we love so much. Since I was upgrading my truck at the time, I wouldn't be going through this now. I thought of only towing capacity and not where the weight was going to be sitting.

I'm not too old to learn.
Art-n-Marge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2009, 10:33 PM   #52
Sinterior
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Kamloops
Posts: 337
M.O.C. #9238
Dmaxdon, I took the written endorsment test last week and taking the driving test next week. You're right the written wasn't really hard and the vision test was easy.

Art-n-Marge I've never personally seen any RV from anywhere pulled over for a weight check here in BC. I was just stating the heavy RV trailer towing license endorsment requirement. I have heard but can't verify that BC has started weighing RV's, and when I weighed my truck and new Montana at a government certified scale, I was told that because I voluntarily weighed them, that I wouldn't be ticketed and made to drop the trailer because I didn't have the endorsment, but had I been stopped and weighed I would have been, because I didn't have it. They never checked my truck or 5th wheel for GVWR or axle ratings, (truck was a 1000lbs over GVWR, fully loaded for a long trip, but I was under all the other max weights, that's why I'm looking for a dually) just weighed all the axles and the trailer axle weight was circled because it was over 4600kg's.

Peter
Sinterior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2009, 12:19 PM   #53
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
The difference between the 3/4 ton and 1 ton truck may not be as much as one thinks..I looked it up on the Ford build your own truck site and there was little difference???? The 3/4 ton would have been our preference but not what we required.
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2009, 06:55 PM   #54
Art-n-Marge
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Murrieta
Posts: 5,816
M.O.C. #9257
Send a message via MSN to Art-n-Marge Send a message via Yahoo to Art-n-Marge
Peter, I figured as much, but I was just asking for curiosity. Most times there isn't a concern until there is an accident (injuries and damage) and someones seeks liability and damages for negligence.

Hi richfaa,

I looked into this a lot prior to buying my second F250 and all I could find out was the heavier leaf springs - I chatted to a pretty knowledgeable service manager to find this out and he said this was the only difference. But the gain would be perfect for me and my load problem and less expensive than buying a new truck. Alas, for a fifth wheel there is a huge pin weight percentage compared to a bumper load and this is what has screwed me up. Thanks for checking.

I know that air bags, stabilizers and equipment to improve the ride typically do NOT increase weight ratings. But stronger springs and differential with a greater ratio can HELP increase weight ratings.

That's why when I purchased my truck I was angry that the price difference between comparably equipped F-250 versus an F-350 was $4,000. That seemed too high just for a set of springs being installed at the factory. So now I am pricing heavier springs after market to solve the shortcoming of a heavy pin weight (heavy rear axle weight). I might not pursue a recert because it's only for me, but at least I will know I am safer. But I must keep cognizant of liability in the event of a problem.
Art-n-Marge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2009, 03:11 AM   #55
SlickWillie
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 2,376
M.O.C. #6575
On the air bag question, I just see no way they can not increase load capacity. In fact, I was looking at some online yesterday. They say they increase capacity 5K pounds. But, they always have that disclaimer line; Do not exceed your GVWR. Can you say LIABILITY?
SlickWillie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2009, 03:49 AM   #56
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
I agree...theoretically they would increase the capacity by 5K lbs because they take the load off the springs and put in on the airbags..The dislaimer tells you what the company really thinks.

The only difference between the 3/4 and 1 ton is springs..Well of course...that IS the diference and we miss lead folks by saying it in a
" why buy a 1 ton when the only difference is a set of Springs" Go to the Ford build your own truck site..Build he exact same truck...one a 3/4 ton and the other a 1 ton.. The price difference will be srprising.. Of course that does not help the peron who has the 3/4 ton truck as they can ill afford to buy a new truck when they may have a fairly new on alrady.
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2009, 04:56 AM   #57
SlickWillie
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 2,376
M.O.C. #6575
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by richfaa

The dislaimer tells you what the company really thinks.
Rich, I think we're in agreement except for that statement. In this suit happy environment we live in today, everything is based on reducing product liability. Kind of like illegal dish systems that are advertised as "for educational use" only. The company that sells those air bags knows exactly what you're gonna use them for; they just don't want a law suit when you overload to the point you bust the axle or tires, or something worse.
SlickWillie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2009, 04:58 AM   #58
akf15e
Montana Fan
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Goldsboro
Posts: 288
M.O.C. #9143
SlickWillie,

I agree. Since I installed my airbags myself, I know I connected them to the frame and to the axle housing, thereby taking some load off the springs (how else would they be able to level the load anyway?) Since I am well under RAWR, I am not too concerned.

That being said, I do not know exactly how much weight/stress I have taken off my springs while bounding down the road, so I still do my very best to keep as close to GVWR as possible.
akf15e is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2009, 05:36 AM   #59
richfaa
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Ridgeville
Posts: 20,229
M.O.C. #2839
We had airbags on every truck we had till this one. We had TT's and we installed them for Leveling and ride. Firestone PR does say that they increase level load capacities by 5K. Of course. On my last truck If I picked up a load of Gravel we inflated the airbags and we were Ok.. If not the front of the truck would nearly come off the ground. However.. that disclaimer by by their high prices attorneys tell the real story. Firestone must figure that the probabilities of losing a legal issue over airbags and capacity are high. If they do not want to accept the liability..why would I?????
richfaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2009, 06:55 AM   #60
SlickWillie
Montana Master
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 2,376
M.O.C. #6575
I'm amused. The front wheels almost come off the ground and the truck axle is not overloaded? This from someone who preaches no overweight loading. You gotta be kidding. I know I am probably near the max at pin weight on our 3/4 ton, and it barely goes down when we drop the fiver on it. Enough for me on this subject.
SlickWillie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who is towing with a Chevy 2500 HD troutbum53 Tow Vehicles & Towing 13 06-18-2015 02:05 PM
Towing with Duramax 2500 Phil Eyler Tow Vehicles & Towing 13 03-28-2009 01:56 PM
TOWING CAPACITY ALAN Tow Vehicles & Towing 43 09-30-2008 04:16 PM
Towing Capacity of Ford F350 Theadamsfamily General Discussions about our Montanas 8 07-13-2004 02:45 AM
Dodge 2500 Towing Capacity? Montana_657 Tow Vehicles & Towing 0 03-08-2004 02:10 AM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Montana RV, Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.