Tire Tutoring 101

[Art-n-Marge]

Introduction:

While there are many tire tacticians in the MOC, in my opinion LonnieB and Glenn (of Glenn and Lorraine) are most active. This is public post so I'd like comments from persons in the know rather than persons like myself who have specific opinions based on limited experiences. The main goal of this post is education.

I am reading more and more recent material that LT tires are being interchanged for ST tires. The cost difference is not as bad anymore but the durability, strength and characteristics of a radial LT seems to be an improvement over a similar radial ST. The older statements that ST is the way to go on a trailer is just what it is, old.

In years past, while the ST tires "claim of specialty" is that they are being built for the specifics of a trailer; that they do better sitting for weeks/months; that they last longer with sun beading on them and that they have a stiffer sidewall; this was mostly prevalent when trailers were smaller and lighter and STs were a belted tire. Even converting to radial STs however ALL brands have stories of major failure on any rig including the newer, heavier RVs we tow today. While Chinese-made spcific branded tires have the most negative stories by far, most domestic and other brands have some these catastrophic stories. I personally have not read of any of these stories on LTs and would be interested in knowing if an LT tire fails in the same manner, or it just goes flat (per my experiences - no catastrophies).

I agree that LT tires, meeting the specifications of trailer weight are now a viable solution. There is no question of that since in the past few years, trailer manufacturers AND dealers are mounting these on trailers quite often. I have not monitored that with smaller, lighter trailers, but the heavier rigs are definitely seeing LTs.

My questions for you as a tire dealer, a former tire dealer AND trailer owners are:

- Do you or would you recommend ST tires any longer? If so, under what conditions?
- Did/Are your customers asking for them or are they asking for LTs?
- If a customer asks you for YOUR recommendation what are your answers in either case of ST versus LT? Again, under what conditions?

I have purchased STs only twice for two different rigs. In both cases it took almost a week to get what I wanted. I have had to wait no more than a day for LTs when I got new ones for my trucks or heavy SUVs.

Lastly, I realize whether taken proper care or not, tires can fail or go flat. All the STs that failed on me (5 of them), failed because of tread separation. Three of them were catastrophic blowouts and the last two I saw the tread separation but was able to recognize prior to a blowout (whew, was I lucky, but angry). In the case of LT ownership, I have only had 5 flats in 12 years on 4 different vehicles - notice I did not say catastrophies. While the vehicles involved were NOT RVs, each flat was caused by punctures (2 nails, 1 screw, and a large piece of metal) or in one case, the wheel got a crack in it, so this was not a tire failure but the tire did go flat and is back in service no worse for wear. No catastrophies with LTs but a high percentage of catastrophies with STs.

More questions:

- What kind of catastrophic failures have you seen with LTs? On any vehicle?
- What kinds of failures of LTs have you seen on a trailer and what kind were they?

I am trying to get to the point that LTs are getting to be a much better option for our heavy Montys or SOBs these days. It does seem the LTs might a little more expensive, but it comes down to how much do you want to pay for safety and piece of mind? STs might meet the need cost and application wise, but when they fail, they really fail.

Thanks for the help!

[Glenn and Lorraine]

Art, I am going to take a shot at this but please understand while I claim to be very knowledgable about tires I also must admit that I have been away from the business for years.

quote:Originally posted by Art-n-Marge

Introduction:

While there are many tire tacticians in the MOC, in my opinion LonnieB and Glenn (of Glenn and Lorraine) are most active. This is public post so I'd like comments from persons in the know rather than persons like myself who have specific opinions based on limited experiences. The main goal of this post is education.

I am reading more and more recent material that LT tires are being interchanged for ST tires. The cost difference is not as bad anymore but the durability, strength and characteristics of a radial LT seems to be an improvement over a similar radial ST. The older statements that ST is the way to go on a trailer is just what it is, old.

In years past, while the ST tires "claim of specialty" is that they are being built for the specifics of a trailer; that they do better sitting for weeks/months; that they last longer with sun beading on them and that they have a stiffer sidewall; this was mostly prevalent when trailers were smaller and lighter and STs were a belted tire. Even converting to radial STs however ALL brands have stories of major failure on any rig including the newer, heavier RVs we tow today. While Chinese-made spcific branded tires have the most negative stories by far, most domestic and other brands have some these catastrophic stories. I personally have not read of any of these stories on LTs and would be interested in knowing if an LT tire fails in the same manner, or it just goes flat (per my experiences - no catastrophies).

I agree that LT tires, meeting the specifications of trailer weight are now a viable solution. There is no question of that since in the past few years, trailer manufacturers AND dealers are mounting these on trailers quite often. I have not monitored that with smaller, lighter trailers, but the heavier rigs are definitely seeing LTs.

My questions for you as a tire dealer, a former tire dealer AND trailer owners are:

- Do you or would you recommend ST tires any longer? If so, under what conditions?
Absolutely and the proof is the very fact that I just replaced the 4 STs with 4 more STs. Yes I did insist on American made only because of the bad service I received as well as the problems others were having. This is not to say I will never buy another China made tire. My tire experience took place back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. NOT unlike their autos, when I first started in the business all the Japanese tires were referred to as JapJunk. Intially these JapJunk tires were rags but over the years they have improved considerably and are now taking a huge portion of the business.
If still in the business and with just one exception I would have no problem recommending the STs. The exception is the overall availability of ST tires on the road. While LTs are normally available at most any reputable tire shops STs are not.
- Did/Are your customers asking for them or are they asking for LTs?
No not really and the reason is I AIN'T IN THE BUSINESS NO MO!
- If a customer asks you for YOUR recommendation what are your answers in either case of ST versus LT? Again, under what conditions?
Everything being equal I would have no problem recommending either
I have purchased STs only twice for two different rigs. In both cases it took almost a week to get what I wanted. I have had to wait no more than a day for LTs when I got new ones for my trucks or heavy SUVs. That's exactly what I am saying and if you are on the road a weeks wait is sometimes out of the question.

Lastly, I realize whether taken proper care or not, tires can fail or go flat. All the STs that failed on me (5 of them), failed because of tread separation. Three of them were catastrophic blowouts and the last two I saw the tread separation but was able to recognize prior to a blowout (whew, was I lucky, but angry). In the case of LT ownership, I have only had 5 flats in 12 years on 4 different vehicles - notice I did not say catastrophies. While the vehicles involved were NOT RVs, each flat was caused by punctures (2 nails, 1 screw, and a large piece of metal) or in one case, the wheel got a crack in it, so this was not a tire failure but the tire did go flat and is back in service no worse for wear. No catastrophies with LTs but a high percentage of catastrophies with STs.

More questions:

- What kind of catastrophic failures have you seen with LTs? On any vehicle? Just go back to the 90s when the Ford Explorer and Firestone was having their troubles. OH Yeah, IMHO opinion it was Ford's problem but Firestone took the beating.
- What kinds of failures of LTs have you seen on a trailer and what kind were they? Exactly the same failures we are seeing on LTs or any other tire running down the road.

I am trying to get to the point that LTs are getting to be a much better option for our heavy Montys or SOBs these days. It does seem the LTs might a little more expensive, but it comes down to how much do you want to pay for safety and piece of mind? STs might meet the need cost and application wise, but when they fail, they really fail.

Thanks for the help!
I hope this helps
Your Welcome

[Emmel]

Glenn, this is the reason we rely on you and Lonnie so much. I'd rather hear from the people that know tires! It's not always easy to determine just how much some people actually know, or as it's often said, "as my tire guy says"!

[Glenn and Lorraine]

I forgot to comment to this...

quote:Originally posted by Art-n-Marge

NOT RVs, each flat was caused by punctures (2 nails, 1 screw, and a large piece of metal) or in one case, the wheel got a crack in it, so this was not a tire failure but the tire did go flat and is back in service no worse for wear. No catastrophies with LTs but a high percentage of catastrophies with STs.

It stands to reason that a blown out and shreading tire will do considerably more damage to a thin piece of aluminum, the plastic skirting and the wiring as found on RV's. The fender wells of most other non-RV vehicles are not constructed with such easily damaged materials.
Over my years I have seen many a run flat situation on non-RV type vehicles but never the damage I have witnessed done to an RV.

[Art-n-Marge]

That's why I'm trying to substantiate. With LT tires the catastrophic failures seem less. Not counting the Explorer problems from some years ago, I do not anticipate them blowing off RVs like ST tires tendencies.

I am trying to get some insight from anyone that would have more exposure to these tendencies (thanks for your comments so far Glenn) - LT tires on an RV versus ST tires on an RV. We have plenty of stories of STs catastrophically failing, but are there any for LTs? Personally, I had one ST blowout cause damage, one blowout not cause damage (just lucky, I guess) and a third blowout occurred as I came to a stop (luckier yet).

[KathyandDave]

A bit off topic (well, maybe way off topic)...because of the roll-over debacles at the turn of the century, U-Haul will not allow their trailers to be attached to Ford Explorers of any vintage, including brand new. Lincoln Aviators, Mercury Mountaineers and Mazda Navajos (I think), although identical to the Explorer, are all acceptable. U-Haul got hammered by too many lawsuits over accidents where Explorers were involved. I suppose Ford and Firestone tried to redirect the finger of blame wherever they could. So, the fallout wasn't just for Firestone.

[Art-n-Marge]

U-haul is one to talk. They don't take very good care of their trailer tires.

Not one time have I been able to pick up a trailer, use my own gauge to check the tire pressure and show them they are always under the recommended number on the side of their trailer. Average tire pressure on their trailers is about 20 - 25 lbs and the recommendations are between 45 and 65 lbs depending on the size of the trailer. That's not even enough for most cars.

It's funny how they ask, "Well, do you want us to fill it up, it could take a while for the compressor to charge up?". I never leave the lot without the recommended pressure. What idiocy.

I have also rented from non-Uhaul companies and have fared better, but sometimes they are off but not usually as bad (but I have not rented much from them, maybe 3-4 times). The bad news is that Uhauls are too convenient.

[rvghostdriver]

quote:Originally posted by Art-n-Marge

==cut off all the wordy stuff==

I personally have not read of any of these stories on LTs and would be interested in knowing if an LT tire fails in the same manner, or it just goes flat (per my experiences - no catastrophies).

==cut off the rest wordy stuff==

I think there are not many real blow outs on trailer tires. Not as many of them are blow outs as people think. If you have a flat tire on your car you know it right away and can stop usually before the rim tears up the tire too bad. When you have a flat tire on a trailer you usually do not know it for awhile and the rim runs on the flat tire and destroys it until nothing is left and you look at it and think you had a blow out. So I think most of the reported blow outs are really flat tires that ran long enough to be destroyed. I could be wrong but that is what I think.

[kerry]

Good reason to use Pressure Pro or an other monitor system - Kerry

[OntMont]

At least up until the time our trailer was built in October '04, LT tires were standard issue on Montanas. Not sure when or why the change to ST.

[LonnieB]

All quotes in this post were originally posted by Art-n-Marge unless otherwise noted.

quote:- Do you or would you recommend ST tires any longer? If so, under what conditions?

Yes I do occasionally recommend ST rated tires, usually on 14 and 15 inch wheels. With the smaller wheels there isn't much else to choose from that has the proper load rating.

quote:- Did/Are your customers asking for them or are they asking for LTs?

If the customer is using ST rated tires when they come in, they usually ask for ST rated tires and sometimes ask if there is anything better thay can use. If they are using LT rated tires, they ask for LT rated tires.

quote:- If a customer asks you for YOUR recommendation what are your answers in either case of ST versus LT? Again, under what conditions?

I usually ask how much their rig weighs fully loaded and at what speed they travel. Then, if their wheels are 16 inch and if I have an LT of the proper size and load rating, I recommend the LT rated tire. If their trailer has 14 or 15 inch wheels, I recommend the ST rated tire.

quote:I have purchased STs only twice for two different rigs. In both cases it took almost a week to get what I wanted. I have had to wait no more than a day for LTs when I got new ones for my trucks or heavy SUVs.

One more reason I prefer LT over ST. Availability becomes critical when you are far from your regular tire dealer.

quote:- What kind of catastrophic failures have you seen with LTs? On any vehicle?
- What kinds of failures of LTs have you seen on a trailer and what kind were they?

I have seen fiberglass fenders of dually trucks blown to pieces by LT rated tires that came apart. I have seen exhaust systems pulled apart, brake lines pulled apart, parking brake cables ripped out of the brake housing, wires pulled out of the harness and the sides of trucks beat all to he** from catastrophic LT tire failures. I have seen trailers with fenders bent, taillights beat out, wires pulled loose and wood flooring broken out. I have seen it with many kinds of tires, it can happen with any tire of any type or brand.

quote:Thanks for the help!

Your more than welcome. I hope it's what you were looking for.

[rames14]

Our recent "blow out" mirrors this experience. When our tire went with a puff of smoke, we heard it immediately and pulled over safely. Being a Saturday, we were limited in tire shops available. No ST's, only LT's. If I waited until Monday (assuming I could have found a dealer with my size ST's), I would have lost most of my week's vacation. Whether it is just the brand difference, our new Kumho tires were much heavier and stiffer than the Carlisles that came off of our Big Sky. I believe the "tire guy" at S&H Tire in Council Bluffs knew his stuff. Time will tell.

[Art-n-Marge]

Yes LonnieB, that's about what I was expecting.

- STs are still very practical for smaller tires/lighter loads. Especially since the cost difference is much lower since I last priced them. For larger rigs, LTs are a viable option plus they provide additional features like overall strenght and ability to be driven faster (for passing and downhill speeds getting up there).
- When my STs failed, they lost tread, the tire got weak or hot and virtually exploded and I maintained them constantly so owner neglect is not a consideration on my part. That is my criteria for catastrophic.
- If the LTs blew up, was it because the owner's run them underinflated? I see that so many times on the side of the road - the sidewalls are shredded. I consider that unfortunate but I would not categorize any tire that is not cared for correctly, then blows up because of it, in the same category as an ST or LT that blows up even when cared for correctly. I am not counting owner neglect in these questions.

Good stuff, so far. Thanks! I hope there will be more.

[rames14]

Art -
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying a shredded sidewall is definitely owner neglect? Our sidewall separated despite continual monitoring for correct tire pressure. The sidewall didn't shred, rather the bead let go. If we hadn't gotten to the side safely and quickly, it very well would have shredded. Just trying to clarify.

[8e3k0]

We as owners and users probably will discuss this until "the cows come home", but we must remember that as "ST" tires are manufactured they DO NOT require a spec that carries and has the same liability of Human Beings that the auto tire carries and must meet. Auto tires DO have a higher and better spec that have to carry that liability where trailer tires do not. Agricultural tires have a low risk for liability and are simply stamped "Do Not Exceed 25 MPH". Trailer tires were okay when they were the little 8, 12, 13 inch sizes etc and if they blew so what---just accept it. Now as our rigs grow in size and weight, carry heavy high value contents, the RV manufactures are trying to accomodate a 15000 pound unit on 4 little 16 inch tires that are run to max ratings-- guess what? A higher potential of failure on a tire that can be substandard to a LT tire. These heavy RVs should be running tri axles or running axles with capacities like 9000 or 10,000 pounds each with 19 inch tires that have a load rating that supersedes max GVRW by 15 to 20%. Quite interesting that when you jump from an F350 Ford dually to a F450 the wheels automatically jump to 19 inch to attain that 15,000 plus GVRW. We all run 4 - 16 wheels and tires to carry 14,500 lbs even though we can say 20% of that 5 wheel weight goes on the pin and TV. To conclude: if they manufactured RVs to the requirements of the auto/truck industry for safety, reliability, durability and quality, the cost would be 3 to 4 times and the number of RVs on the road would be greatly reduced. Be very interesting to view and forecast what will happen in the next 5 years to see where the tandem 7000 lb axles with 16 inch rubber moves. Will this be something of the past? I don't think there is new 3/4 or 1 ton truck out there with 16 inch rubber today. To keep low profile and meet the increasing weights of RVs, will we see dual wheels under the large 5th wheels? Just think; as standard equipment on your Monty; disc brakes with ABS systems, coil/leaf springs that may be 3 inches wide, air ride, you name, it's possible, as they slowly follow the automotive industry. Wow this is run on, and yes in my "off the cuff" opinion only. Keep those Monys running on good quality rubber!! Ellis

[stiles watson]

quote:At least up until the time our trailer was built in October '04, LT tires were standard issue on Montanas. Not sure when or why the change to ST.

According to Charles Wade of Keystone, the ST tires are now mandated and all trailers coming off the line will have them. The consumer can do what he wishes (ST or LT) after market, but the manufacturer can not. If you want to know why, well, I guess you'll have to ask the regulators.

quote:If the LTs blew up, was it because the owner's run them underinflated? I see that so many times on the side of the road - the sidewalls are shredded. I consider that unfortunate but I would not categorize any tire that is not cared for correctly, then blows up because of it, in the same category as an ST or LT that blows up even when cared for correctly. I am not counting owner neglect in these questions.

I think the assumption that all catastrophic tire failures on LT tires were the failure of the owner to attend the tires properly is erroneous.

[Art-n-Marge]

Stiles, you are right with the actuality of any tire blowing up is catastrophic as far as an event. But, I am trying to create separate categories for a catastrophy caused by the quality of the tire or manufacturer, and, ownership neglect. For the purpose of selecting the BEST solution for our rigs, I prefer to start with the quality of the tire from the onset be at its best. If a tire owner neglects or mistreats their tires and they fail then that is not the fault of the manufacturer.

I am not trying to create an argument. I am trying to understand the reasoning behind selecting LT tires over ST tires and what can the right thing.

I already disagree that the statement "until the time our trailer was built in October '04, LT tires were standard issue on Montanas. Not sure when or why the change to ST" is incorrect because my 2006 Montana came with Mission ST tires. But I have heard that some RVs came with LTs off the lot.

Even our resident tire experts, Glenn and LonnieB, use STs and LTs respectively. The great news is I have learned more about the importance of selecting tires that are right for us and that there are arguments for and against them.

Does everyone at least agree there is no FINITE answer? That the decision is made by the RV owner at the time of need, availability and finances? The good news is that there are choices and they are sound. Tires are an important topic of this forum and typically the discussions here allow for constructive and numerous posts of experiences. Admittedly, I was a firm believer that STs belong on a trailer, period. NOW, I admit there are practical, actual and reasonable times that LTs can be used. I consider that progressive and safe.

Thanks for allowing me to ramble.

[Glenn and Lorraine]

quote:Originally posted by Art-n-Marge

Does everyone at least agree there is no FINITE answer? That the decision is made by the RV owner at the time of need, availability and finances? The good news is that there are choices and they are sound. Tires are an important topic of this forum and typically the discussions here allow for constructive and numerous posts of experiences. Admittedly, I was a firm believer that STs belong on a trailer, period. NOW, I admit there are practical, actual and reasonable times that LTs can be used. I consider that progressive and safe.

Thanks for allowing me to ramble.

Art, you are correct in your thinking. Every tire manufactured has it's place. I personally do not feel an ST tire is better or worse than the LT for trailer use. Believe me when I say, I would be the first to change over to LTs if I had the least bit of concern about the STs. There have been way to many stories by so called experts here on the Internet that the STs are unsafe that the general population believes this garbage. Well afterall, I read it on the Internet so it must be true.

Anyway, Standing an ST along side an LT for comparison and feeling the flex or lack of flex in the sidewall is not a fair comparison. The only way I could see this working is if both tires were made by the same manufacturer to the exact same quality level. Just because a tire is round, black and made of rubber means nothing. Like everything else there are different quality levels. Comparing a lo-end Mission to a hi-end Goodyear, Michelin, Firestone, etc is like comparing apples to oranges.

My old 04 2955RL came from the factory with LT235/85R16 E range tires. With the exception of a nail puncture those LTs never gave me a problem. Why they switched over to the STs is a mystery to me.

OK, I think I'm gonna sit back and rest my fingers a bit as I surely know very shortly there will be a new thread once again asking..
"What's the best tire for.....?"

[sreigle]

I don't know whether our "blowouts" were true blowouts or if we ran on the flats long enough for the rim to cause it to disintegrate. This one was a Goodyear Marathon ST tire on our Jayco Eagle back in 2000. Five miles prior we had stopped at a filling station in Sedalia, MO. I eyeballed the tires at that time as I do at all stops. It appeared to be properly inflated or at least not down enough to be noticeable. Five highway miles later this is what we had.


This one is another Goodyear Marathon ST tire on our 2003 Montana 3295RK, on Interstate 35 in Oklahoma. We heard this one pop and immediately pulled over. I can see how it would not take much running down the road on this flat for the tire to be shredded and look like the one above. This one was clearly a blowout. You can see some of the steel belt at the lower right.


And while I'm at it, here's another of our Goodyear Marathon ST tires. This one is probably a blowout waiting to happen. The first is how it looked when I pulled it off the rig. The second is how it looked three days later, sitting in the back of my truck while waiting for a replacement to be shipped to the dealer.

[Art-n-Marge]

Good thing you don't own a Jayco any more. It eats Goodyear tires that are made in China ..... And the conclusions go awry again. Please everyone. This is an inclusive conclusion. Don't start spreading this around.

Thanks for the pictures Steve. They show tire problems happen to all and by all. We just try to get a jump on preventing the next problem. Hang in there. Fortunately, the joys of RVing surpass the bad events for me so far.

And Glenn.... well said!