Tow vehicle for 3400RL - Page 2 - Montana Owners Club

sreigle · 12-17-2006, 10:15 AM

We pretty much have to throw out the old argument about 3/4 ton or 1 ton. My 3/4 ton has equal GVWR and higher ratings on GCWR and tow ratings than the 1 ton single rear wheel trucks built prior to 2005 and many built after that year. I refuse to worry about 3/4 ton or 1 ton. I'll look at the ratings. That's more important than 3/4 or 1 ton.

Cat320 · 12-17-2006, 12:52 PM

Steve...we've been through this before, but I'll repeat it for the new folks on the forum. GVWR is basically irrelevant, the 'rating' you need to check is cargo capacity. We know any deisel will tow any Montana and be within GCWR. However the ability to carry the pin weight (read cargo capacity) is key in this equation. Example of two vehicles I personally visited on truck lots: 2006 F250 PSD 4 x 4 CC, GVWR 10000; 2006 2500HD D/A comparably equipped, GVWR 9200. Ford's GVWR is 800 lbs more than the Chevy, however, and the key point, is that the Ford had a cargo capacity of 2507...100 lbs more than the Chevy. Bottom line is the Ford is 700 lbs heavier than the Chevy. So it doesn't make any difference what the GVWR is, cargo capacity is key.

Glad to see on another thread when you trade TVs you'll be looking at a 350/3500...good move.

sreigle · 12-17-2006, 03:43 PM

I do agree on the cargo capacity being of more value than GVWR numbers.

I was looking for an F350 when I bought this F250 but couldn't find the combination of cab/bed/colors/trim that I wanted in a SRW F350. They were selling like hotcakes at that time (Oct 2004) as the updated Fords had just come out. When I discovered the F250 had better numbers than the 2003 F350 I was trading I decided it actually was a step up. Adding the airbags took care of not having that extra leaf on the rear springs that the F350 had and in my mind that still gives me the same capacity as the F350 since that is the only difference between the two other than the badges.

For the next one, however, I'll go with the F350/3500 because they have even higher capacities and we've traded for a heavier (slightly) Montana. Although I'm not uncomfortable at all with this F250 towing this Montana it just makes more sense when buying to get the higher numbers, especially since cost is nearly identical. This 2005 F250 is closing in on 73k miles and will near 100k by late summer/early fall.

Wrenchtraveller · 12-17-2006, 04:49 PM

The F250 has 17" wheels and tires. To get the max GVWR in a F350 SRW you must get the 18" wheels and tires that are rated higher than 17" tires. It is more than just badges. On top of that the 05 and newer Fords are heavier as Cat has explained , about 300 pounds heavier than an equivalent 04 and earlier.
So an 05 F250 with a 10000 pound GVWR has a smaller payload than an 04 F350 with a 9900 GVWR.

Also this information is only repeated for the benefit of new members that might be shopping for TVs.

sreigle · 12-18-2006, 09:28 AM

Not to argue the point but my '03 F350 SRW with 10,000 GVWR had 16" wheels. The 17" wheels on the F250 (2005) is for the larger brakes. If I recall (would have to doublecheck) the 18" and 20" wheels were an option on the F250. My point was that my '05 F250 has the same GVWR and higher tow and GCWR ratings than my '03 F350 SRW and that is still a fact. The '03 had a higher payload because of the additional leaf in the spring. My '05 has a lower payload than my '03 F350 which is why the airbags to remove the inch of sag in the F250 with the pinweight we had on the 3295RK. This 3400 has a pinweight lighter than our 3295 by 440 lbs The '05 F350 has a higher GVWR max than the F250. But the 05 F250 still has better numbers than my '03 F350.

Also, my truck probably has a lower payload than the supercab and standard cab trucks. Mine is a crew cab.

For the benefit of those looking to buy a TV, what I am saying is look at the numbers, not whether it is a 3/4 or 1 ton. The numbers are what is important. My F250 having higher numbers than many of the 1 tons on the road is testament to that.

indy roadrunner · 12-18-2006, 10:29 AM

Steve, I am coming down on your side as that is what my dealer told me. I told him I would buy a 1 ton or 3/4 which ever as I had a 3400 to buy and what the pin weights were. His advice was my 3/4 ton with the tow package was better numbers that some 1 tons therefore I got the 3/4. Now I know that doesn't set well with the "weight police" but I have not had any trouble with stability, pulling in high wind, going up and down hills, braking nor did I have to do anything special to offset any sag. I still have plenty of spring left after hooking up. I went to my RV dealer and asked him how much to install air bags on the springs and he say "WHY!". We measure empty to hooked up height and it wasn't that much to warrent extra springs or air bags.
Now I will say this, there are some older model 3/4's out there that would not fit the bill. If I ain't mistaken, the difference between a 3/4 GMC and a 1 Ton is the axle and additional spring. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure that is what the dealer said.

Cat320 · 12-18-2006, 11:49 AM

You guys are missing the entire point here. The GVWR is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with sag, pulling, hills, older models, wind, spring, stability, and nothing to do with the weight police. We are talking cargo capacity only, that's where the 3/4 tons come up short. I've put this information in here before, but I'll do it again: To find the cargo capacity of your truck, check the sticker on the left rear door or pillar of the drivers side of your truck. The sticker, entitled "Tire and Loading Information," will have a section that says, "The combined weight of cargo and occupants should never exceed ____ pounds." That's all you can carry and stay within GVWR. The sticker on my truck says 4257.

Steve, I'm not a Ford guy, and cannot address the tire issue...Wrenchtraveller has done that in the past. You are right about checking the numbers...but you must include the cargo capacity as a key number. I'd have gotten a 3/4 D/A, but the cargo capacity was not high enough for a 3400.

Phill, I looked at many trucks exactly like yours when I was doing my research. Here are some examples with their cargo capacity:

Chev/GMC 2500HD, D/A, CC, 4x4, SB: 2325, 2300, 2420

With any one of these trucks we would be over GVWR hauling a 3400...when you add the PW, hitch weight, cargo, tools, passengers, extra fuel tanks, etc. I tried talking to a dealer, too, one told me the rear axle rating was actually the cargo rating...after that I figured I'd better do my own research.

Not trying to be contrary here...but the key number is not GVWR, it is cargo capacity. We know the diesel will tow it, but will it handle the weight in the truck and stay within GVWR. I would really be steamed if I went out and bought a $40k truck based on information gleaned from this forum, then got home and later discovered my 3/4 would not be within manufacturer's weight limits.

Wrenchtraveller · 12-18-2006, 01:42 PM

Payload is simply the truck's GVWR minus the weight of the truck.
This is how the 9400 GVWR Chev can have the same payload as a 10000 GVWR Ford. The Ford simply weighs more.

Also in 05 Ford added another 300 pounds to their already heavy trucks to get the biggest payloads of any pickup.
The 04 F350 with a 9900 GVWR is a 300 pound lighter truck than the 05 F250 10000 GVWR truck.
Do the math, the 04 F350 SRW has a BIGGER payload than the 05 F250 SRW .

A GVWR is a manufacturer's rating..........options like overload springs, air bags, anti gravity dreams, can not increase a trucks GVWR. They can improve handling but please don't think you can increase your truck's GVWR.
You can't and a team of Philadelphia lawyers can't.
Being comfortable with an overloaded truck does not make it OK or wise or anything else. It is your right to take a chance but I don't want new people reading these posts to base a purchase on misinformation.

DarMar · 12-18-2006, 01:52 PM

I would agree with CAT320, and those recent posts explain it very well indeed. One extra thing to consider is that each truck has a different weight sticker depending on the weight of FACTORY options added on to each vehicle. Therefore one must add the weight of any options the dealer may have installed AFTER factory. Things like running boards, box rails and even mud flaps can add up quickly. Oh, and of course there is the hitch weight. In our case those extras added 412 lbs. to be added to the sticker weight of 7552lbs for our truck. We do have a rather heavy Hijacker autoslide hitch.

Wrenchtraveller · 12-18-2006, 02:11 PM

You are exactly right, Darwin and if we want the biggest payload we can get, we should all get the elcheapo models because all the little luxury options like power window motors, sound insulation, etc. all just reduce our payload and a decked out King Ranch Ford probably weighs 500 pounds more than the same model XL. The XL will have a 500 pound larger payload.

You have to weigh your truck to really know your payload.

GlobalDouglas · 12-18-2006, 02:33 PM

After the purchase of my Monty last month I then needed to find an appropriate TV. My main goal was to tow within limits. The information here was very vaulable and allowed me to make what I believe to be the right choice in a TV (for me!!!!!) I certainly appreciate all the opinions and different points of view. In the end we each must get information, make our own decissions and live (and drive) with them.
Everytime I read something like "I am over weight but my tv tows just fine" I could not help but to wonder if an insurance company would or could use that as an excuse to decline a claim even if the accident was NOT due to being over weight? Anyway, thanks for all the posts; they really help us newbies! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!

Wrenchtraveller · 12-19-2006, 01:45 AM

Good Post Doug and by your signature I can see that your TV is the right model for a 3400.
It is nice to see people doing the research and making the right decisions. I am not a very popular poster because I don't agree with the "comfortable" crowd but I am on this forum for information sharing more than any other reason. All the best with your new two Toys.
A King Ranch and a 3400 Montana. WOW!

Someday I would love a 3400 but that will mean a new TV. My 05 SRW F350 with an 11000 GVWR is pretty well maxxed out with the way I pack. I end up with 11080 on the truck, only 120 pounds to spare so for now we will keep the 2955RL.

sreigle · 12-19-2006, 03:05 AM

Doug, I asked that question of my insurance agent. In my case, he said coverage would not be denied but it might be used to cancel the policy after payout if they decided it was a factor in the accident. "If they decided" is the operative phrase. I would have no say in it.

emurray · 12-19-2006, 06:06 AM

I am not so sure that I'm glad I read all the postings on this thread. I wasn't too concerned before, but now I am. I think I'm a bit over the cargo capacity of my truck. It seems that the only way to know for sure is to visit the scales. I know that I must weigh the truck with a full fuel load and with all the stuff I would normally carry. Knowing what the truck weighs and the pin weight of the Mountaineer, I should have a pretty clear picture of where I stand. I should probably also weigh the Mountaineer, loaded with all the normal stuff.
Any further suggestions?.......

sreigle · 12-19-2006, 12:01 PM

Also be sure both of you are in your usual seated positions when they take the weight. That's how we do it, anyhow. Also, your normal amount of freshwater in the tank.

I have them weigh twice. Once with the full rig. Then I drop the trailer in their parking lot and have them weigh the truck without trailer. The difference is the pinweight.

Montana Sky · 12-19-2006, 01:14 PM

Steve,
Do you happen to recall your pin weight?? Last trip to the scales put me in a tad over 2,180 lbs with my coach loaded with all the "normal" stuff. Dry pin weight for my coach was right around the 1,700 lb mark.

MAMalody · 12-19-2006, 04:44 PM

Some scales won't let you drop your trailer unless you exit the scale and then they normally charge you full bore for the truck weight. Someone suggested that you weight your rig, then just extend your front legs to take the weight off the TV and get your reweight for $1, at least it is $1 in WA. This is a lot easier also.

sreigle · 12-20-2006, 11:56 AM

Dave, pinweight on our loaded 3400 is 2860. That's with w/d stack and high gloss plus a heavily loaded basement storage area. The pinweight on our 2003 3295RK with the same setup and gear was 3300.

Mike, I exited the scale to drop the trailer because of other traffic for the scale. I told them what I was going to drop the trailer and come back so they went along with me. Each time I've done this I got the impression it is not unusual. You just need to tell them you're doing that. I told them from the speakerphone thing on the scale and on the second trip told them this is the re-weigh. I paid for two weighings, of course.

Montana Sky · 12-20-2006, 01:23 PM

Thanks Steve.

indy roadrunner · 12-20-2006, 02:00 PM

Steve here are my numbers. When I was returning from camping in October I had empty tanks in the Monty but I had just fueled at the Flying J so I got the wild idea to weigh the rig because it was slow around there at the time. My front steer axle was 4340, the rear axle was 5260 and Monty's combined 2 axles was 10140 lbs. So I dropped Monty and pulled back on (extra charge) and the empty weight of the truck was 4200 lbs on steer and rear axle was 2920. Now if my math is right that means I had 2340 pin weight. Keep in mind I have the long box 2500HD Extended cab 4x4 with duramax and allison tranny and the HD tow package. The sticker on my door post says GAWR front Axle 4670 and GAWR rear axle 6084. Now according to my figures I am still within limits. So I go to the GMC web site and for my model it says the payload capacity is 3342 lbs. So if my pin weight is 2340 isn't that within specs. Also it sad the max tow capacity is 15400 lbs. Once again within specs. Remember I don't full time and everything I own is not loaded in the Monty, we usually carry a couple weeks worth of summer stuff so I imagine I am lighter than most full timers.

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